MOLECULAR RESONANCE OF LIQUID H20

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Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
Hi People,
Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.



You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
 

KL7AJ

Joined Nov 4, 2008
2,208
Hi People,
Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.



You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?

I'm pretty sure the molecular resonance has little to do with how easy it is to dissociate water. If such were the case, microwave ovens would dissociate water all the time, which we know doesn't happen.

D.C. voltage is as effective as anything for dissociating water.

eric
 

Thread Starter

Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
KL7AJ-
I respectfully disagree. True, microwaves agitate the water molecules, causing increasing temperature
Voltage fields around water align the dipolar molecule.
So, when the molecule is at it's greatest "flexed" position, or "bent" or "squished" whatever, it is elongated, and the electron bonds are weaker. At this instant it should be A LOT easier to separate the water with voltage.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
7,856
Do you have any idea to what frequencies those wavenumbers correspond? You will need something better than a CMOS 555 for your oscillator.

Metaphysics might be a better forum on which to post this project.

John
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,073
The molecular ressonant frequency of water is in the near-infrared. The absorption spectrum has nothing to do with "bending" the molecules.
 

triggernum5

Joined May 4, 2008
216
Its a common talking point with the whole HHO generator crowd.. Some ppl have claimed that microwave/IR excitation makes electrolysis energy feasible for HHO production.. (Obviously I've never seen this successfully demonstrated..
Anyways, the wavenumber, or cm^-1 means wavelengths per cm..
the wavength would be (1/wavenumber)cm.. So your graph is ranged from 2.5-3.0microns, or 5-6x the size of visible light waves..
 

Thread Starter

Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
COOL
I learn so much awesome stuff here...
Thanks

My point about absorption is that maximum absorption occurs at resonance. Absorption is literally transferring energy into physical motion of the molecules. In the case of water, being it's a triangular bond, the molecule is actually getting squeezed like a thigh master. When it's squeezed all the way, its elongated, and the bond is weakened. I recently read about someone using a quartz transducer as the cell container to facilitate this kind of resonance, and then using HV electrodes housed in the container to break the bonds.
 

AliceT

Joined Dec 31, 1969
0
Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
Why doesn't someone just come out and answer the question? The frequency is of the order of 100 TeraHz, or 100,000 GigaHz, or 100,000,000 MegaHz, or 100,000,000,000 kiloHz or 100,000,000,000,000 Hz.

In other words, an infrared laser is what you need. Of course, it's not going to work, but try if you want. But be careful because 3 microns is safe for the retina of the eye, but can damage the cornea since the radiation is absorbed so well that the thin layer of water takes all the energy. - OUCH! :eek: Buy the proper laser safety glasses, ... and some tissues so you can cry when you realize you wasted your time and money.
 

Thread Starter

Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
Ouch so harsh, but thank you for the answer.

Interesting that you should metion lasers because that's exactly what Meyers incorporated into his last system. The cell electrodes had slots cut in them for laser light to "prime" the water.
 

triggernum5

Joined May 4, 2008
216
Theres still those dang laws of thermodynamics to overcome.. Electrolysis of water for HHO just isn't a feasible energy source.. Its like buying new cars and hoping to make money reselling them..
 

Thread Starter

Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
A valid point, which I will concede, but is it not it the case that we consume water in the process? Water is split, burned in the engine, and not all the water is recovered again. Some is turned into NO2.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
7,856
Why doesn't someone just come out and answer the question?
Maybe this will give you some insight into that rhetorical question:

Farlander said:
A valid point, which I will concede, but is it not it the case that we consume water in the process? Water is split, burned in the engine, and not all the water is recovered again. Some is turned into NO2.
Please excuse us for having a little fun. BTW, Farlander never asked that question, so it was fair to assume he knew the answer based on his extensive research into the topic.

John
 
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beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,808
What is your point? Some of the oxygen is lost because it is trapped by parts of the exhaust system that are rusting.

Assume a closed system, in which nothing but water, hydrogen, or oxygen is present. After careful measurement, it will always be true that more energy had to be used to electrolyze a quantity of water into component gasses than can be obtained by burning them back into water.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,073
A valid point, which I will concede, but is it not it the case that we consume water in the process? Water is split, burned in the engine, and not all the water is recovered again. Some is turned into NO2.
Now wait just a darn tootin' minute... since when does hydrogen miraculously transform into nitrogen?

You're burning gasoline AND hydrogen to get your water and nitrous oxide and other products of combustion. Trust me, the equations DO balance! The universe is not a sloppy bookkeeper.
 

Thread Starter

Farlander

Joined Oct 14, 2008
158
NO2 forms because of nitrogen in the ambient atmosphere mixing with the fuel in the cylinder.

I saw a graph of the dissociation rate of water into HHO with amps on the x axis and voltage on the y axis. The curve increased exponentially with increasing voltage. How could this be possible if we assume equal power input = equal gas output? Can anyone verify the dissociation curve of water?

Well people I don't have all the answers. My only good advice is don't let the government take your guns. I'm trying to solve a panacea that has never seen market despite thousands of people working on and some even claiming success. Still that goddam dune buggy video haunts me... how could he have a car that ran on water and nobody calls him on the lie? Don't you think news reporters would have noticed the smell of gas? WTH?
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,073
I saw a graph of the dissociation rate of water into HHO with amps on the x axis and voltage on the y axis. The curve increased exponentially with increasing voltage. How could this be possible if we assume equal power input = equal gas output? Can anyone verify the dissociation curve of water?
Because power = square of the voltage divided by impedance. Pleas please please please please read the material in the e-book.

I'm trying to solve a panacea that has never seen market despite thousands of people working on and some even claiming success.
Interesting consistency there, huh? Lots and lots of effort, but zero hard evidence of success. If this were one of your patients instead of a social phenomenon, what would you conclude?

Still that darn dune buggy video haunts me... how could he have a car that ran on water and nobody calls him on the lie? Don't you think news reporters would have noticed the smell of gas? WTH?
Lots of people have called him on the lie. Some of them right here in our forum.
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,808
I'm trying to solve a panacea that has never seen market despite thousands of people working on and some even claiming success.
To your credit - and their discredit - at least you're being honest about the results.
 

triggernum5

Joined May 4, 2008
216
That is true about the honesty.. Hiding giant batteries in their HHO vehicles seems to be a secondary hobby for alot of those revolutionary guys on YouTube..:)
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
21,847
Or maybe a small cylinder of hydrogen? Not like their doing cross country drives or anything. A really small cylinder could be very stealthy indeed, maybe even in the electrolyzer (just one cylinder amoung many).
 
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