Lightweight air core transformer?

Thread Starter

Robert Clark

Joined Aug 6, 2016
35
I'm researching the ionocraft, commonly called a "lifter":



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft

These require tens of thousands of volts. Usually heavy iron cored transformers are used to create the high voltages. But this means the power supply is heavy and the ionocraft can't lift them.
But how lightweight can an air cored transformer be? Less than 1 gram weight per watt power output would be ideal.

Bob Clark
 

BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
4,053
The trick to making small transformers is using high frequencies. An air core transformer at 50 or 60 Hz would be much larger than the equivalent iron core.

Bob
 

tcmtech

Joined Nov 4, 2013
2,867
An old television flyback can easily make HV DC to multi tens of KV levels without a lot of added components.

Making HV DC with nothing more than air core transformer however is not so easy being some form of end stage AC to DC conversion that can operate at those high voltages and in the multi-tens tens or more megahertz radio frequency range in a small lightweight package is not possible to my knowledge.
 

Aleph(0)

Joined Mar 14, 2015
597
An old television flyback can easily make HV DC to multi tens of KV levels without a lot of added components.

Making HV DC with nothing more than air core transformer however is not so easy being some form of end stage AC to DC conversion that can operate at those high voltages and in the multi-tens tens or more megahertz radio frequency range in a small lightweight package is not possible to my knowledge.
100% Agreed:)!
 

Thread Starter

Robert Clark

Joined Aug 6, 2016
35
An old television flyback can easily make HV DC to multi tens of KV levels without a lot of added components.

Making HV DC with nothing more than air core transformer however is not so easy being some form of end stage AC to DC conversion that can operate at those high voltages and in the multi-tens tens or more megahertz radio frequency range in a small lightweight package is not possible to my knowledge.
Thanks for responding. The lifters can work running on AC. The thrust isn't as great though, so you don't need to convert to DC.
Air cored transformers are the same as Tesla coils. Many amateurs have built Tesla coils. What are the power to weight ratios achieved with these Tesla coils?
 

Hypatia's Protege

Joined Mar 1, 2015
3,226
Air cored transformers are the same as Tesla coils.
Without wishing to 'split hairs' - I submit that, although the former 'category' subsumes the latter, said relationship is intransitive -- À la 'all ducks are birds yet not all birds are ducks':D

What are the power to weight ratios achieved with these Tesla coils?
As something of an inveterate 'coiler' (i.e. Tesla coil designer/enthusiast) myself, I may state - sans fear of contradiction - that said ratio as regards even well designed SSTC arrangements vs. ferrite transformer topologies (e.g. re-purposed LOPTs) significantly favors the latter up to (at least) 200kV...

As an aside -- should you be contemplating implementation of ion-reaction propelled aircraft please be advised/reassured that such systems are both theoretically and demonstrably feasible:) (even if less than practical at this point in time) -- Ion-propelled spacecraft, on the other hand, are, IMO, a 'blind alley' owing to the age-old 'dearth of reaction mass' impasse...

Best regards and good luck!
HP:)
 

tcmtech

Joined Nov 4, 2013
2,867
Without wishing to 'split hairs' - I submit that, although the former 'category' subsumes the latter, said relationship is intransitive -- À la 'all ducks are birds yet not all birds are ducks':D


As something of an inveterate 'coiler' (i.e. Tesla coil designer/enthusiast) myself, I may state - sans fear of contradiction - that said ratio as regards even well designed SSTC arrangements vs. ferrite transformer topologies (e.g. re-purposed LOPTs) significantly favors the latter up to (at least) 200kV...

As an aside -- should you be contemplating implementation of ion-reaction propelled aircraft please be advised/reassured that such systems are both theoretically and demonstrably feasible:) (even if less than practical at this point in time) -- Ion-propelled spacecraft, on the other hand, are, IMO, a 'blind alley' owing to the age-old 'dearth of reaction mass' impasse...

Best regards and good luck!
HP:)
I think you need to add a link to an online thesaurus and or dictionary in your signature area so us simple, not so wordy public school educated folk, can have a quick reference point to use in order to understand what you said most of the time. :oops:
 

Hypatia's Protege

Joined Mar 1, 2015
3,226
I think you need to add a link to an online thesaurus and or dictionary in your signature area so us simple, not so wordy public school educated folk, can have a quick reference point to use in order to understand what you said most of the time. :oops:
Everyone's a critic;):oops: --- Are you referring to the un-expanded abbreviations (my bad:oops:)?

LOPT = Line Output Transformer (i.e. A ferrite-core transformer applied to development of accelerating potential in CRT display systems --- AKA "CRT Flyback":cool:...)

SSTC
= Solid State Tesla Coil -- (Refers to a Tesla coil system featuring semiconductor 'switching devices')

Anyway it seems we're at 'cross purposes' -- To wit: I agree with your post (#3):):):)

Very best regards
HP:)
 
Last edited:

tcmtech

Joined Nov 4, 2013
2,867
Nope, I got the abbreviations just fine.

It was, 'subsumes, intransitive, inveterate, and impasse' that are far enough outside of my linguistical knowledge base to not be able to fit their meaning by the way of assumed sentence contexts. :oops:
 

Aleph(0)

Joined Mar 14, 2015
597
As an aside -- should you be contemplating implementation of ion-reaction propelled aircraft please be advised/reassured that such systems are both theoretically and demonstrably feasible:) (even if less than practical at this point in time) -- Ion-propelled spacecraft, on the other hand, are, IMO, a 'blind alley' owing to the age-old 'dearth of reaction mass' impasse...
HP I say you're overthinking! To me it looks like OP just wants to use electrostatic repulsion between lifter and gnd instead of creating drive from reaction of ejected ions:confused:?
 
Without wishing to 'split hairs' - I submit that, although the former 'category' subsumes the latter, said relationship is intransitive -- À la 'all ducks are birds yet not all birds are ducks':D:)
The logical defect in Robert Clark's statement is not intransitivity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitivity

It's the falsity of his implied Logical biconditional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_biconditional

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if
 
The logical defect in Robert Clark's statement is not intransitivity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitivity

It's the falsity of his implied Logical biconditional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_biconditional

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if
But then I was approaching his assertion from a 'set' (well... 'ring') as opposed to 'connective' perspective (and, hence, implication as opposed to consequence, if you will...) -- 'tho I'll grant you, it's a fair cop:oops::D

Best regards
HP:)
 
Last edited:

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,223
I think you need to add a link to an online thesaurus and or dictionary in your signature area so us simple, not so wordy public school educated folk, can have a quick reference point to use in order to understand what you said most of the time. :oops:
I'm already carrying 3 dictionaries.:D One in Spanish for Martinez, one in English for HP, and The Urban Dictionary because I'm so old I can't keep up with some of the modern slang.:(

Signed,
hashtag one two:D

Now, what's that book about popular phrases and quotations?
 

Thread Starter

Robert Clark

Joined Aug 6, 2016
35
Without wishing to 'split hairs' - I submit that, although the former 'category' subsumes the latter, said relationship is intransitive -- À la 'all ducks are birds yet not all birds are ducks':D
As something of an inveterate 'coiler' (i.e. Tesla coil designer/enthusiast) myself, I may state - sans fear of contradiction - that said ratio as regards even well designed SSTC arrangements vs. ferrite transformer topologies (e.g. re-purposed LOPTs) significantly favors the latter up to (at least) 200kV...
As an aside -- should you be contemplating implementation of ion-reaction propelled aircraft please be advised/reassured that such systems are both theoretically and demonstrably feasible:) (even if less than practical at this point in time) -- Ion-propelled spacecraft, on the other hand, are, IMO, a 'blind alley' owing to the age-old 'dearth of reaction mass' impasse...
Best regards and good luck!
HP:)
Well said as a true protege of Hypatia. :)

But why is the power to weight so poor for Tesla coils, when they don't even need to have a core? Is the power loss rate so high?

Bob Clark
 
Nope, I got the abbreviations just fine.

It was, 'subsumes, intransitive, inveterate, and impasse' that are far enough outside of my linguistical knowledge base to not be able to fit their meaning by the way of assumed sentence contexts. :oops:
Sincerely thanks for your input! --Please know that 'readability' is a matter I take quite seriously - especially as we approach completion/'publication' of the EHT PSU tutorial's first installment:cool:

Very best regards
HP:)
 
Top