# I have made a flywheel with magnets attached and 4 power coils, not working out properly

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
As I said earlier these pictures are quite old. I now have four coils on my machine and have compounded the AC voltage's through a diode bridge to rectify to DC, I then made a capacitor bank of 16000uf because of the equation in the picture if you flip and solve for current the more capacity the more current will flow!

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#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
just wanted to add for your information, I do understand impedance matching from college. When the resistance is equal to the impedance of the coils there will be max power transfer.

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#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
So I've been thinking, you know you said that I had to take the voltage drop over the resistor, is there not an equation to find it out?

#### Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,899
Don't know if I missed something but I saw a DC output. Heard you talk about a 1:4.2 ratio transformer. I have to ask a dumb question: Since when does a transformer work with DC?

You're right about transforming voltages. When voltage goes up "Yes" amperage goes down. It goes down proportionally. IF this is a perfect transformer. I haven't yet found one. Truth be told, transformers waste power in different ways. I'm not a transformer expert so I can only state general and possibly wrong comments, but if you transform 10V @10A to 100V via transformer you're not going to get 1A out. Close, but not 1A.

Power i.e. Watts or VA is energy. All forms of energy have to be considered. Some of the energy is wasted as heat due to wire resistance. Some is waste heat due to magnetic flux exchange inefficiency (don't know if I'm expressing that clearly or correct). Bottom line - there are other losses.

Suppose you're putting power into a motor to spin the generator. That motor is going to be experiencing some of the same waste heat. In the case of a motor there's also bearing friction and wind resistance of the inner mechanism spinning. Then there's losses in the drive wheel. Losses due to friction in the plate bearings or bushings. THEN the more you load the generator the more drag there is on the generator. As that slows, your motor bogs down and draws yet more current causing yet more heat and more loss. As bearings heat up from friction they expand and tighten their grip on the shaft causing even more friction.

You said that if you put the magnets closer to the coils then they stick to the coil; or something like that. Sounds to me like a plastic built frame is not sufficiently strong to hold those magnets in place and keep them from deflecting off line to make contact with the coils. Just my opinion here, but magnets at the outer circumference with coils outside that circumference will allow better control of how close the magnets come to the coils. AND plastic snap together frame versus an aluminum frame (or steel) would be better yet.

I know, I know; I'm sitting here finding all the problems to the solution rather than finding solutions to the problem. For what it's worth, knowledge is power. And knowing where you're going wrong can lead you to a course correction. Correction in your thinking and approach. What you want to do is doable. But you must start with sufficient energy in order to transform the energy into something you want to work with. So good luck. With all sincerity, good luck. Not being a smart azz, just hoping you solve your problem.

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
Don't know if I missed something but I saw a DC output. Heard you talk about a 1:4.2 ratio transformer. I have to ask a dumb question: Since when does a transformer work with DC?

You're right about transforming voltages. When voltage goes up "Yes" amperage goes down. It goes down proportionally. IF this is a perfect transformer. I haven't yet found one. Truth be told, transformers waste power in different ways. I'm not a transformer expert so I can only state general and possibly wrong comments, but if you transform 10V @10A to 100V via transformer you're not going to get 1A out. Close, but not 1A.

Power i.e. Watts or VA is energy. All forms of energy have to be considered. Some of the energy is wasted as heat due to wire resistance. Some is waste heat due to magnetic flux exchange inefficiency (don't know if I'm expressing that clearly or correct). Bottom line - there are other losses.

Suppose you're putting power into a motor to spin the generator. That motor is going to be experiencing some of the same waste heat. In the case of a motor there's also bearing friction and wind resistance of the inner mechanism spinning. Then there's losses in the drive wheel. Losses due to friction in the plate bearings or bushings. THEN the more you load the generator the more drag there is on the generator. As that slows, your motor bogs down and draws yet more current causing yet more heat and more loss. As bearings heat up from friction they expand and tighten their grip on the shaft causing even more friction.

You said that if you put the magnets closer to the coils then they stick to the coil; or something like that. Sounds to me like a plastic built frame is not sufficiently strong to hold those magnets in place and keep them from deflecting off line to make contact with the coils. Just my opinion here, but magnets at the outer circumference with coils outside that circumference will allow better control of how close the magnets come to the coils. AND plastic snap together frame versus an aluminum frame (or steel) would be better yet.

I know, I know; I'm sitting here finding all the problems to the solution rather than finding solutions to the problem. For what it's worth, knowledge is power. And knowing where you're going wrong can lead you to a course correction. Correction in your thinking and approach. What you want to do is doable. But you must start with sufficient energy in order to transform the energy into something you want to work with. So good luck. With all sincerity, good luck. Not being a smart azz, just hoping you solve your problem.

Not dumb but I think you missed the fact that I'm building a custom made inverter that invert the 55VDC to 55VAC to then put through the 1:4.2 toroidal transformer. the power is energy/unit time i.e the second (joules/sec = power)
In my machine the thing that over comes the drag (from magnets, bearings, noise) is lessened by momentum and inertia! although the term has been allocated to another technology the term anti-magnetic cogging technology fits perfectly for my case and the anti-magnetic cogging works better when the magnets are situated closer to the axle. I fully agree that the lego frame is not ideal but its what I have and can work with given my circumstance and may I add if you don't load the motor then it has no torque look it up maximum torque when axle is stalled and least torque when the motor is at full speed so bogging down a motor makes it do useable torque which then relate to impulse torque x time = change in momentum and if you put a number 2pi for the radians to give joules and then over the second that it took to do the revolution gives power (torque x rad / s = power(watts))

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#### Alec_t

Joined Sep 17, 2013
14,313
So I've been thinking, you know you said that I had to take the voltage drop over the resistor, is there not an equation to find it out?
IF you know the internal resistance of your voltage generator and IF you measure the generator voltage when under load then yes, you could use an equation to calculate the voltage across the resistor. Whatever, you still have to measure something.
Btw, that fan motor is a shaded-pole type which won't allow much speed variation without a dramatic loss of torque.

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
learned something new I shall look up shaded-pole motor facts!

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
anybody know how fast top speed is on motors of this kind and type

#### ThePanMan

Joined Mar 13, 2020
793
Not dumb but I think you missed the fact that I'm building a custom made inverter that invert the 55VDC to 55VAC to then put through the 1:4.2 toroidal transformer.
So you're building an AC generator to convert to DC to convert to AC? Gotta say - I see lots of losses in the process. Why not just generate the AC you need?

One suggestion: Move the magnets outboard on the disk and move the coils to match.

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
So okay saying now that I would like 20watts and the colour wheel (20ohm x 4.472^2) not sure I'm using thee colour wheel correctly

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#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
So you're building an AC generator to convert to DC to convert to AC? Gotta say - I see lots of losses in the process. Why not just generate the AC you need?

One suggestion: Move the magnets outboard on the disk and move the coils to match.
View attachment 306740
The purpose of situating the magnets nearer to the axis of rotation may not be clear to you, the futher you put the magnets to the edge, right, the more magnetic cogging there is (the force the magnet exerts on the coil cores) is the same (or rather the coil cores have on the magnet passing, to further that, the flywheel). So, say the force that the magnet passing the coil has an force of 2units, and say the wheel radius is 15cm (which is accurate) then imagine that you create absolute magnitude vectors torque is a cross product. So mind experiment.
1inch from axis x the 2units = 2Nm.
2inch from axis x 2units = 4Nm.
3inch from axis x 2units = 6Nm
4inch from axis x 2units = 8Nm
5inch from axis x 2units = 10Nm
6inch from axis x 2units = 12Nm
this is fundamental to understand because it's the basis of the next part which is slightly harder to explain!
the closer to the axle that the magnets are situated the less retarding toruqe there must be!
There is more to my theory but I haven't patented yet although at the same time I would like everone to no the theory!

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#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
Any questions so far about what I said?

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#### ThePanMan

Joined Mar 13, 2020
793
The purpose of situating the magnets nearer to the axis of rotation may not be clear to you, the futher you put the magnets to the edge, right, the more magnetic cogging there is (the force the magnet exerts on the coil cores) is the same (or rather the coil cores have on the magnet passing, to further that, the flywheel). So, say the force that the magnet passing the coil has an force of 2units, and say the wheel radius is 15cm (which is accurate) then imagine that you create absolute magnitude vectors torque is a cross product. So mind experiment.
1inch from axis x the 2units = 2Nm.
2inch from axis x 2units = 4Nm.
3inch from axis x 2units = 6Nm
4inch from axis x 2units = 8Nm
5inch from axis x 2units = 10Nm
6inch from axis x 2units = 12Nm
this is fundamental to understand because it's the basis of the next part which is slightly harder to explain!
the closer to the axle that the magnets are situated the less retarding toruqe there must be!
There is more to my theory but I haven't patented yet although at the same time I would like everone to no the theory!
Actually that's a rather excellent explanation. I hadn't considered torque. Only that the magnet passing the coil faster would result in a higher output. But as has been said before - energy in - energy out. "In" is always greater than "Out".

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
Actually that's a rather excellent explanation. I hadn't considered torque. Only that the magnet passing the coil faster would result in a higher output. But as has been said before - energy in - energy out. "In" is always greater than "Out".
So ok the next part is obvious the is friction in various place but we focus on the axle bearings which is small beacause of the bearings, say 96% or 4% lost. momentum is (Inertia 1/2Mr^2 * angular velocity) and spinning at 550RPM. So, 550RPM is approximately 57.91 rad/s. so the momentum is the productof half mass of wheel is 0.5 * 4.7kg and radius is 0.15m^2do the sum and get for inertia (0.052875kgm^2) momentum 3.062units and for good measure the RKE is 177.32joules. Now the faster the wheel spins the less the time the magnets have to have a retardation torque, and so the slowing effect of the coils cores on the magnets (connected to the wheel) compounded with the fact that the magnets are closer to the axle means even less retarding torque. Now consider Newtons first law, an object will not change its motion unless a force acts on it. the wheel tends to stay at the same rate of rotation unless acted on by an outside force (this case torque) which it is the friction and the magnetic cogging which as stated earlier goes down when the wheel is spinning faster so we are not accelerating the wheel we are only over comming the friction which is low and lowers further still when the weight of the wheel is increased so it take only a small portion of energy to keep the wheel spinning at the same rate, I really hope you understand!

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
there's more but you gotta understand what's been said so far

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
think of the2nd class lever rules and picture a the further from the axle the easier it gets to turn when the magnets are close to the axle I'm thinking outside the box

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
Yes yes I believer in all that there will always be losses
I'm waiting for you to explain the electrodynamics of the generator in terms of energy conversion inefficiencies from electrical to mechanical and back to electrical again.

#### Maglatron

Joined Nov 3, 2023
154
It's not an easy concept, not many people can visualise it working, is there anybody else who have any constructive ideas about what I talked about