Is the timer supposed to active LOAD or UNLOAD?

 

Timer activates unload.

 

Ok, you never mentioned a second pushbutton (unload) but it works out fine. I added it to the ladder logic as well.

Hope this helps:

 

Looks good, only problem now is this shows that I need 2 of the 4PDT relays? I only bought 1...

 

Looks good, only problem now is this shows that I need 2 of the 4PDT relays? I only bought 1...

I though we were on the same page... I didn't say that 1 4PDT would replace both relays, I just said that if I were you, I would use a 4PDT in place of a DPDT or SPDT in any situation. I had a look again at the drawing; you really can't get away with removing either relay because one is used as an interlock. sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Last question (I hope!), How the heck do I wire this timer relay:

http://www.crouzet.com/english/catalog/-din-rail-mounted-timers-chronos-2-timers-17-5-mm-din-rail-mounting-mas5-Part%20number-88826014.pdf

I fear that the magic smoke may have been released....


EDIT: Better spec sheet

Interesting to note that I have 6 terminals, but only A1 and A2 are labeled!

 

whats the full model # of the one you have, and what function are you trying to do?

 

whats the full model # of the one you have, and what function are you trying to do?

MAS5 Part number 88826014

24 VDC NO open signal should trigger the relay when closed, relay has a time delay on.

 

go down to the bottom of your second spec sheet, the last row of figures, look at the one on the left. your load is supposed to be in series with the relay. it doesn't have a Normally Open contact. That's why none of your other terminals are labeled, they are not functional. This means in order to use that relay, you need an additional relay, with a 24VDC coil, that will be in series with this timer.

 

LOL why don't you just order a stock of 4PDT relays, with 12V, 24V, and 120VAC coils. That's what I do. I know, this is maddening. You can never have too many relays on hand.

 

go down to the bottom of your second spec sheet, the last row of figures, look at the one on the left. your load is supposed to be in series with the relay. it doesn't have a Normally Open contact. That's why none of your other terminals are labeled, they are not functional. This means in order to use that relay, you need an additional relay, with a 24VDC coil, that will be in series with this timer.

Kind of what I was figuring, thanks for the confirmation. Definitely maddening, considering I purchased this as a "relay" with a 24 VDC "coil". Pretty sure I fried the relay by wiring A1 and A2 to 24 VDC last night. I will be returning this to McMaster with a note that item does not function as described.

Do you know of a timer relay with a 24 VDC control/coil and a 120VAC contacts?

LOL why don't you just order a stock of 4PDT relays, with 12V, 24V, and 120VAC coils. That's what I do. I know, this is maddening. You can never have too many relays on hand.

I don't do this because we are a composites company that doesn't do any electrical design work, aside from simple switches and minor repairs. This control circuit is a side project to one of my new production lines. I took the design of the controls home figuring I could figure it out as opposed to outsourcing the whole thing.

 

Here's one from grainger so you can get it same-day if need be:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MAGNECRAFT-Relay-6CUV6?Pid=search
don't forget the relay base:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MAGNECRAFT-Relay-Socket-6CVD6

And I know you love mcmaster, so:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7096K7
and the relay base
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7122K19

Just to be sure, before you go out & buy anything, I recommended these because they are on-delay timers like the one you bought. You're sure that's what you need, right? When you apply 24VDC to the coil, it will wait X amount of seconds, then switch the contacts.

Thank you for not outsourcing!

 

And I know you love mcmaster, so:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7096K7
and the relay base
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7122K19

Just to be sure, before you go out & buy anything, I recommended these because they are on-delay timers like the one you bought. You're sure that's what you need, right? When you apply 24VDC to the coil, it will wait X amount of seconds, then switch the contacts.

Thank you for not outsourcing!

That's exactly what I need, and that was the exact unit I was looking at from Grainger.

Somehow when I searched "timer relay" and picked "DIN-Rail Mount" McMaster only gave me one option, which should have been described as a time delay switch in my opinion.

I haven't decided if I am returning the "timing relay" yet, as I did fry it, but their initial description was incorrect.

 

which should have been described as a time delay switch in my opinion.
.

What do you expect? they're french. That's a joke, but seriously, I have noticed that the French & German components I've come across to date have been unintuitive to put it lightly. I think the germans & the french have their minds wired a little different than the rest of the world. Other stuff out of Europe seems a little more normal (seen som bizarre stuf from Austria too), but when dealing with French & German stuff I always double & triple check everything to make sure it's right, and sometimes the information provided isn't even sufficient to make sure 100% that it is right, you just have fire it up and see if literally catches fire. Lots of pictographs that make no sense, where there should be a scentence. In my plant I have a bunch of German machine manufactured in the '70s - the electrical prints totally threw me off at first. I had to start from square one and figure out how to read them, and that's what got me started on this theory about how their minds function differently. At first I thought "they think outside the box", but after a while I've decided that they just think inside a different box. I've never seen an American made timer that goes in series with the relay coil; pretty sure that's a wacky european thing.

 

Well, it works. Kind of.

With the timer relay open (i.e. not even wired in) the solenoids trigger, but only as long as the momentary "load" and "unload" switch is held closed.

With the timer relay close (i.e. wire nutted together), my relays buzz, show the green indicator light, but my switches still do not latch.

I am cleaning up my wiring diagram to triple check the wiring.

 

I just triple checked the schematic and can't find anything wrong with it.

Trying think what would cause your relays to buzz, I'm not coming up with much. Wire-nutting past your timer contact should be no different than holding the unload button in, so it's odd that pushing the unload button doesn't cause chatter, but wire-nutting past the timer does.

 

I just triple checked the schematic and can't find anything wrong with it.

Trying think what would cause your relays to buzz, I'm not coming up with much. Wire-nutting past your timer contact should be no different than holding the unload button in, so it's odd that pushing the unload button doesn't cause chatter, but wire-nutting past the timer does.

Forgetting to strip a single neutral wire can have undesired consequences....

Works great now!

 

Forgetting to strip a single neutral wire can have undesired consequences....

Works great now!

DOH! yeah shorts and opens (like insulated wire) in wiring can be a bear to troubleshoot. Glad you got it working!

 

Well, they've been running the fixture for a few days and there are some items they would like to add to the control pendant:

1. Cycle stop-Kills cycle (I will wire this in series with E-stop)
2. E-Stop (Currently kills power to the solenoids-works great, just need the non locking "stop" added)

The above is the easy part, just waiting to get my switches in. The more difficult part is to add a 2nd set of buttons that can "jog" my solenoids without latching the relays:

• load
• unload

I also need these switches to be disabled when the cycle/cycle stop buttons are being used (i.e. I don;t want load/unload to be active if "cycle" is underway). I am thinking a toggle between "jog"/"cycle" modes.

 

This is totally doable, but will require you to use more relay contacts, which is fine since you have 4PDT relays (this is exactly why I recommended them). However, if you wish to add any more functions, depending on what they are, you might be approaching the point where installing a simple PLC is a logical choice.

I also need these switches to be disabled when the cycle/cycle stop buttons are being used (i.e. I don;t want load/unload to be active if "cycle" is underway). I am thinking a toggle between "jog"/"cycle" modes.

Catch me up on this cycle/cycle stop development. I'm not aware of these. Is this part of the timer circuit? I'm not privy to the knowledge of what the timer's function is. Anyway, I've gone ahead and edited the drawing to what I think should work. Edits in red.

P.S. if your timer is latched and you press stop, it will stop as long as you hold the button in, but when you release the button it will resume operating. You will need to press E-stop. I need more details about the timer (what it's for, how long it's time is, what latches it, etc) to work around this.