Home Air Purifier - Dangerous Levels of EMF ?

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Lumenosity, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    Hmmmm.

    I thought I clearly said in Post # 63 that I had the answer I was comfortable with?
    Last two lines.....Is it gone?

    Huh?
    Not a single person mentioned starting any fires anywhere in this thread?
    You ok Ron?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  2. Raymond Genovese

    Well-Known Member

    Mar 5, 2016
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    I have been following this thread and I think that you are, in large part, not acting unreasonably. That is, there are many examples of things that we thought were perfectly safe only to find out at some other time that they could be very harmful. Add to that the simple concept of dose-response and individual sensitivity and there is certainly nothing wrong with being concerned with you and your family's safety in that regard. Unfortunately, it is sometimes the case that questioning such things results in what can appear as accusations of being an alarmist - again, there are many examples of this that turned out to be something that we should get alarmed about.

    But, you have to base a decision on the evidence that is available to you. Several people in the thread have given a lot of solid information and links on the issue - that is a good thing and I read all of that and found it informative.

    If you had been working with ozone generators as air purifiers, I would have pointed you to a good deal of evidence and medical and scientific opinion that high concentrations of ozone can be quite harmful to lung tissue, for example. The risk is elevated for asthmatics and others that can be highly sensitive. There is also some good evidence that some ozone generators under some conditions can create environments with concentrations that are high enough to be of concern. You do not appear to be using or interested in using that kind of "air cleaner".

    You replaced the unit that you were concerned about or questioned and you are happier with what you are measuring with the new unit. So, well done. No?
     
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  3. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    So as reported, my NEW AirPurifier emits VERY little EMF.

    So, I took it apart and lo and behold, the entire motor is completely encased in a steel container on the SanCusto unit.
    A REALLY nice job they did. I'm impressed. I took a photo of this one and will post it soon.
    The one emitting a lot of EMF made by Holmes has no shielding at all. (They're smarter and saved the costs, right Ron & Ebo?)

    Now it makes one wonder why this manufacturer (Sancusto) would go through the trouble to do this knowing that EMF was totally harmless? Shouldn't their engineers know how harmless EMF is (as Ron and Ebo do) Just asking.
    They could save big money if they simply eliminated the EMF shielding. Right?

    It just doesn't make sense.
     
  4. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    OUTSTANDING POST !

    Seems you understand what many others didn't. I'm simply on an information gathering quest. Some seem so irritated with that? That I don't just drop it simply because of non-conclusive information and insufficient research. Many of the worlds greatest scientists questioned and persisted even when their peers ridiculed and chastised them. The Wright Brothers and Galileo for example.

    Thank you!
    I never said I was right or that the EMF was certainly harmful....only that I am curious and investigating.
    Seems many would prefer you not dare question their opinions or continue after theirs has been stated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  5. Raymond Genovese

    Well-Known Member

    Mar 5, 2016
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    Thank you, I appreciate that. But also, I'm not so sure how irritated some folks got. From my experience in this thread and others both Ron and ebo seem to be pretty reasonable - not that I would necessarily agree with anybody all the time. I really think that they were just contributing to the discussion. But I have been known to "misunderstand" a post or two myself, so maybe I am projecting a bit :)
     
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  6. BobTPH

    Senior Member

    Jun 5, 2013
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    No, I did not miss the point.

    Yes, I have a question?

    So, you have evidence that this particular motor puts out way more EMF than huge industrial motors, that, as I said, people have been exposed to for a century?

    Bob
     
  7. ebeowulf17

    Distinguished Member

    Aug 12, 2014
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    I also never said that EMF was clearly NOT harmful, only that the burden of proof lies with those who believe it is harmful.

    Through most of this thread, I've been on your side as far as curiosity and an unwillingness to accept current scientific theory as hard fact. In those respects, you're absolutely right, and I'm sure the vast majority (maybe all) of the participants in this thread feel the same way. We all know that science has been wrong before and needs corrections:
    • tobacco
    • asbestos
    • lead pipes and paint
    • radioactive paint
    • etc.
    The great thing about science (when done properly) is that it's flexible and adaptive. It constantly updates itself to be the best understanding it can be, based on current evidence. When new evidence comes along that doesn't fit with an accepted theory, new theories are devised to try to explain the data, and those new theories are tested and retested until something rises to the top as our new best understanding.

    To use a legal analogy, the difference between your opinion and mine seems to be that I consider low frequency EMF to be "innocent until proven guilty" and you're acting as if it's "guilty until proven innocent."

    I do think it's good to be skeptical of new technologies with unknown risks, and to study the heck out of them before exposing the public to them. I personally think genetic engineering is moving too fast (not that it's intrinsically, permanently wrong as many seem to think, just that we should study it more slowly and methodically in controlled circumstances.) The same could be said for certain other technologies too. But, I also think that at some point the burden of proof shifts. When you've got many decades of studies that can't find anything wrong with something (like low frequency EMF,) then at some point you must accept that our current theory is that it is "safe." That theory should never be taken as hard fact. It is sitting out there waiting to be disproved. It can't ever actually be proven, but it could eventually be disproved.

    My frustration, which led to over-zealous comments about bunker digging, comes from your strong bias towards thinking the entire world must prove to you that EMF is safe while you offer no evidence that it's unsafe. Demanding empirical evidence was one step too far for me. Your bias towards conspiracy theories also puts me on the defensive. I don't think the government is making up EMF fears or any others just to perpetuate studies they don't believe in. I think they try to study what they think needs to be studied, and they share information publicly to raise support for those inquiries. I also don't think that all the air purifier manufacturers secretly know about the dangers of EMF and are hiding the truth from the scientific community at large. I think there are plenty of reasons to choose a metal housing over a plastic one in any given scenario, and that decision probably had nothing to do with their secret, hidden knowledge of low frequency EMF dangers.

    So, if you want to remain on the cautious side of the EMF question, that's fine. If real dangers from low frequency EMF are ever discovered, you'll be ahead of the game in terms of safety, and you can say "I told you so!" I just think you're putting an awful lot of thought and effort into something you can't possibly answer yourself (unless you're part of a major lab with deep resources.) And I think it's unhealthy to be afraid of everything we don't completely understand... because the reality is that we don't completely understand anything at all! We only have theories. If you're gonna stay worried about EMF, what else are you avoiding? Where do you draw the line? Anything could be hiding unknown dangers, yet to be discovered. Are you afraid of your couch? Your MP3 player? Stray mosquitoes? I choose not to live in fear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  8. ebeowulf17

    Distinguished Member

    Aug 12, 2014
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    Thanks for the kind words! I do occasionally get frustrated and go on a rant, but I try to find my reasonable side more often than not.

    I'll admit I went overboard when suggesting digging bunkers, but I certainly never claimed any absolute knowledge of EMF dangers, only what appears to be the current consensus.

    *** EDIT:
    I'll also admit I went on a bit of a rant again just above this post. I'll try to behave from now on. Two rants in one thread is more than enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  9. ian field

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 27, 2012
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    If it bothers you - don't use it. Simples...…...

    Donate it to someone who isn't scared of elastictrickery………...
     
  10. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    Thanks Ebo. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that others had to "prove" EMF was safe.

    Personally, I find the discussion engaging and informative.

    I think a few took it that way and maybe that's where some of the "attitude" started creeping in.
    If I came across that way it's more of a lack of my ability to communicate properly than an intent to pressure anyone.
     
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  11. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    Has more to do with expanding knowledge than fear......but thanks for the contribution. ;)
     
  12. Lumenosity

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 1, 2017
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    <Sigh>
    By all means Bob, would you show me where I said that? Can you? I seriously doubt you'll be able do so.
    "IF" I did, then again, it was probably more my lack of communication skills.

    Unless I'm mistaken (always possible), I think I said it puts out more EMF than any device I measured in MY household, including my 1500watt microwave.

    In this case, maybe you didn't fully comprehend what I actually said? Or maybe you knee-jerk responded without actually reading the thread?
    Show me where I actually said what you say I said and you WILL get my apologies.
     
  13. MisterBill2

    Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2018
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    EMF stands for electromotive force, most commonly recognized as voltage. So as long as you are a foot or more away from the device while it is operating there is no problem. Why some fools choose to promote fear through ignorance is unclear. My son's family is allergic to lots of stuff and so they keep several of the air purifiers running at all times with no problems, but all of the devices are several feet away from where the people are.
     
  14. BobTPH

    Senior Member

    Jun 5, 2013
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    I didn't say that you said that, I am asking you. My post implies that in order to believe your little electric motor is harmful, you must believe that the huge industrial motors in use for a century have lower emissions since they have not, in all that time, been implicated in any health problems.

    If anyone is missing the point, it is you. My argument is that people have been exposed to much larger EM fields than your air purifier puts out without any evidence that there is any harm. It's just like the ridiculous argument about cell phones causing brain tumors. We have literally billions of people using cell phones. Has there been an increase in brain tumors? The answer is no. If you look hard enough on the web you will probably find a study that shows some specific condition is increased in people exposed to EMF. Why is that not convincing? When you read the details they tested people for 100 different conditions, and 1 of them showed in increase at a 99% confidence level. Which is exactly what random data would show. This is knows as the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. You fire a bunch of bullets at the side of a barn and then draw a target around the cluster of holes.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  15. MisterBill2

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    Jan 23, 2018
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    OK, so now I understand that the concern is electromagnetic force, not stray voltage, and that makes a lot more sense. And this discussion is addressing an artificially created hysteria over a hazard that does not exist in the real world. What is obvious is that in electric motors and other equipment that utilizes magnetic fields, only that magnetic flux that performs some useful function is desired. Stray magnetic flux costs money to generate and makes the equipment more expensive. So especially in motors the striving has always been to minimize any stray magnetic fields. The only place where there is an actual hazard associated with the magnetic field is near MRI machines, and that is because of the force on any magnetic material.
    At any reasonable distance from any appliance that uses anything magnetic, such as motors, transformers, or solenoids, while the field may be detectable with a sensitive enough device, there is no hazard that has been verified. Of course, those folks selling the magnetic field detectors will tell you otherwise to sell their product. So just like many other sales gimmicks, this one is all about the money and only ABOUT THE MONEY.
    Remember that just because somebody can print something does not make it true, no matter how well they print it. AND, not everything that you find on the internet is correct.
     
  16. Raymond Genovese

    Well-Known Member

    Mar 5, 2016
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    k - got it - thanks! ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Tonyr1084

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    Sep 24, 2015
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    Yeah, I find TV can be very depressing. Especially the news.

    I'm taking my leave from this thread (unwatched).
     
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  18. joeyd999

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jun 6, 2011
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    I miss the days of literally toxic masculinity.
     
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  19. ian field

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 27, 2012
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    Most use capacitor/diode multipliers - so they aren't particularly dangerous if you take the cover off.
     
  20. MisterBill2

    Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2018
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    And the good news is that those multipliers have not much magnetic field.
     
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