Holes and other empty spaces

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Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
milly molly mandy,

So far, I have the impression that it is indeed accepted by most people that it is the electrons that move And that "holes" are a concept, used to aid understanding of things like pnp junctions.
What is accepted by "most people" is not necessarily the truth. A consensus of opinion is not proof. Holes are not a concept, they are real. Remember the link I gave you to an authoritative source that said holes have just as much standing as electrons with respect to quantum-mechanical entities? Holes are a semiconductor phenomenon, and have an "effective mass" different from electrons. Holes even live in n-type semiconductors, although their numbers and lifetimes as minority carriers are much less the the majority electrons. Holes have a different mobility than electrons. You will never find a quantum hole in a metal wire because the ocean of electrons in metals will completely swamp a hole before it can ever form.

Ratch
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,408
Don't worry about Ratch, he over complicates everything. Get the base concepts down first, then you can build on them.

Ratch, new folks don't need swamped with information. They are struggling as it is. I don't know if you ever plan on teaching, but this is something you will have to learn yourself before you can do it well. You start small, then as you have a concept down (even if it has errors, or maybe especially if it does) you refine it later. People think in models and analogy, no one, not even you, absorbed the entirety of physics first try.
 

Thread Starter

Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
Bill_Marsden,

Ratch, new folks don't need swamped with information. They are struggling as it is. .….
It should be the OP that should decide if the reply is too involved or complicated, not Bill Marsden. The OP can either ask for clarification or ignore the explanation completely. The only thing you should be concerned about is whether the facts I presented were correct.

Ratch
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Calm down, Ratch. Not everybody needs to understand electronics down to the lowest level to make good use of semiconductors.

That is the same for a driver, who can competently negotiate traffic but is unaware of the functioning of the devices under the hood. He may not be able to design an engine, but that in no way prevents making use of one

How many fencers forge their own foils? Or bicyclists convert iron ore into steel and make their frames from it?

You are trying to force-feed information without regard to the level of interest.
 

Thread Starter

Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
beenthere,

You are trying to force-feed information without regard to the level of interest.
Force-feed? I have no authority to require anyone to read my posts, or assign study materials as a teacher could. As with everything in this forum, one can either read and believe, or ignore and disregard.

Ratch
 

steveb

Joined Jul 3, 2008
2,436
I think some of this discussion is missing the mark and not helpful to the OP. I think Ratch raises a good point to say that the hole should be viewed as a particle. Also, others are correct to say that someone learning should at first focus on simple concepts. However, really both of these ideas are not contradictory.

The OP need not study quantum electronics, but needs to only understand the concept of the valence and conduction bands and the distribution of electrons and what that means to charge flow in a semiconductor. These concepts are simple and need no mathematics or detailed background. Yes, it is confusing to put it all together, but that's just the nature of it.

Basically, the term "hole" is just a short hand way of saying "lack of electron". However, when you solve the quantum mechanical equations, this lack of an electron in the valence band behaves similarly as an electron in the conduction band. Simply put, a "hole" is the lack of an electron in the valence band, while an "electron" is an electron in the conduction band. Both the hole and the electron behave similarly. (same charge magnitude but different mobility)

Ironically, if you think about it, the confusion is not the term "hole" but the term "electron" because an electron in the valence band is not an interesting charge for current flow in a semiconductor. Only electrons that are excited to the conduction band are interesting, so why don't we give them another name like "plug" or something like that (preferably nothing perverted ;) ). To me, the poor choice of name for the excited electron is a major reason why every one of us struggles with this subject at first.
 
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Thread Starter

Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
thingmaker3,

Neither is the single opinion of Ratch.
When it is backed up by good reference(s), as it was in this case, then it is more than my single opinion. It becomes a point to be taken seriously.

Ratch
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
thingmaker3,

Not necessarily so. Remember Galileo?

Ratch
Of course I don't remember Galileo. He died long and long before I was born. I barely remember John F Kennedy.

Furthermore, Galileo has nothing whatsoever to do with current flow model versus hole-flow model. He died before either of them were born as well.
 

Thread Starter

Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
thingmaker3,

Of course I don't remember Galileo. He died long and long before I was born. I barely remember John F Kennedy.
Ah, but you probably remember reading about Galileo.

Furthermore, Galileo has nothing whatsoever to do with current flow model versus hole-flow model. He died before either of them were born as well.
True, but he was a good example of the majority being wrong. His knowledge and experience with respect to astronomy was correct, and the majority including the Pope were not.

Ratch
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,408
What does this do with helping someone new to electronics? We're getting off base here. My urge to join this fray is strong, but (for now) I'll resist.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
Bill makes an excellent point. For this thread, let's stick to diodes as described in the AAC text. If anyone feels this to be restrictive or inadequate, they may open a new thread in the appropriate area.
 

Thread Starter

Ratch

Joined Mar 20, 2007
1,070
thingmaker3,

Bill makes an excellent point. ... If anyone feels this to be restrictive or inadequate, they may open a new thread in the appropriate area.
I will make a further point. That action should have been done at post #21 of this thread.

Ratch
 

m4yh3m

Joined Apr 28, 2004
186
http://science.howstuffworks.com/electricity.htm Now QYB, STFU, and GBTW.

And for the love of evil, contribute "deeper" information to those who REQUEST it. Don't start rambling on about the physics of atoms when someone asks something as simple as "how to measure amperage". Stay within the scope of THEIR question. If they want more info, let them ask for it.
 

mik3

Joined Feb 4, 2008
4,843
Holes are not particles. People think of them as particles to make thinks easier. A hole is just a place where an electron was before it leaves this place. Because the electron is negative the hole is said to be positive.
 
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