#### beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Hi All,

Just had the occasion to meet with some people with some incidental interesting news - the PCI-E interface slot is soon going to be the (doubtless temporary) industry standard.

This has created problems for his company, as they use a custom I/F board and code that utilize the PCI interface standard. For them, it's a lot of stuff to throw in the dumper and have to start over.

For the rest of us, any I/O cards that might have carried over into a new computer are going to become worthless in the near future. From something as trivial as a modem card to a really good sound card - all gone.

I was a bit po'ed to find my reasonably good graphics card using AGP was no longer useable in any new motherboard. Soon, all those old cards are gonna be goners. The up-and-coming motherboards will have only PCI-E slots.

Of course it's cheaper to only have one kind of I/O slot to have to support from the manufacturer's standpoint, but cutting off backwards compatibilty like that is rude at best.

Have fear, too. Vista has shipped, so your new computer will likely have that turkey installed by January. Remember that IE7 - now a critical update item - had three critical updates issued within the first week of its release. Wonder how long it's going to be before XP has gone the way of '98, ME and 2000?

#### mrmeval

Joined Jun 30, 2006
833
You can get Firefox for windows.
Don't upgrade the PCs with the cards until you absolutely have to. I know a business that is still running Win95 because the software they have will not work on later versions. It's WFW3.11 software and some 'bridging' software to let it work correctly with Win95. I doubt they've changed it.

I'm running Linux on my webserver, it's a Pentium 90 with 32 Megs and a 300 meg harddrive. Windows can't do that at all.

What do they use the I/F board for?

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi All,

Just had the occasion to meet with some people with some incidental interesting news - the PCI-E interface slot is soon going to be the (doubtless temporary) industry standard.

This has created problems for his company, as they use a custom I/F board and code that utilize the PCI interface standard. For them, it's a lot of stuff to throw in the dumper and have to start over.

For the rest of us, any I/O cards that might have carried over into a new computer are going to become worthless in the near future. From something as trivial as a modem card to a really good sound card - all gone.

I was a bit po'ed to find my reasonably good graphics card using AGP was no longer useable in any new motherboard. Soon, all those old cards are gonna be goners. The up-and-coming motherboards will have only PCI-E slots.

Of course it's cheaper to only have one kind of I/O slot to have to support from the manufacturer's standpoint, but cutting off backwards compatibilty like that is rude at best.

Have fear, too. Vista has shipped, so your new computer will likely have that turkey installed by January. Remember that IE7 - now a critical update item - had three critical updates issued within the first week of its release. Wonder how long it's going to be before XP has gone the way of '98, ME and 2000?
Its all in the name of technical advancement!!

On the question of how long before XP goes the way of 98, ME and 2000, from what I gleamed from the product lilfecycle garb over at MS, official product support for XP finishes some time in 2010. I will try and dig out a link to where this is stated.

From the perspective of those developing Linux, this is their window of opportunity to develop a cost effective, usable (this is currently the problem), distro of Linux that can succintly fill the void left by XP. Windows XP is the MS OS that has been at the front of the computer age, i.e. most people who previously were computer-shy, have taken the computing plunge in the Windows XP era. As a result that have bought into the digital lifestyle with hardware for use with XP, failure to support these standards (and there are plenty of them) with Vista and beyond is not going to go down well.

I for one will not be taking the Vista upgrade with any immediacy, XP does all I need and more. When the time comes for MS pulling the plug on XP then I will look again at assessing my options.

I'm running Linux on my webserver, it's a Pentium 90 with 32 Megs and a 300 meg harddrive. Windows can't do that at all.
There is a good point to make about this; MS have pioneered the need for excessive hardware to support their "ground-breaking" Aero-UI, but Linux have had Aero-style UI features for years running on the minimal spec hardware you mentioned here. I wonder is it the quality of the programming that makes Vista so hardware-hungry or is it a business decision between MS and the hardware manufacturers? One can only wonder.

Dave

Joined Jan 10, 2006
614
8 bit ISA, 16 bit ISA, 32 bit VESA, PCI, AGP, etc etc etc.

Back in the DOS days, you were considered to be a genius if you could write a simple batch file routine, or even just navigate thru the DOS tree..... Now, if you can't create an excel spreadsheet or edit then burn a DVD your considered retarded.....
Progress = OS that requires hundreds of times more power than an old DOS system, to do the same task in twice the time...(but at least it looks pretty).

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
(but at least it looks pretty).
Ultimately isn't that what the end user wants?

Power users may disagree, but Average Joe Public wants to see pretty transistions and UI-effects and gimmicks, he has no idea that "under the bonnet" there is some serious engineering.

Dave

#### phantomp

Joined Nov 3, 2006
8
There is a good point to make about this; MS have pioneered the need for excessive hardware to support their "ground-breaking" Aero-UI, but Linux have had Aero-style UI features for years running on the minimal spec hardware you mentioned here. I wonder is it the quality of the programming that makes Vista so hardware-hungry or is it a business decision between MS and the hardware manufacturers? One can only wonder.
Dave
If you want to run ISS 6 (for ASP.NET) you must upgrade to 2003 Server first.
If you want to use the latest .NET libs you must upgrade to Visual Studio 2005...

There is no reason why the 2003 edition of visual studio should not be able to make use of the latest .NET development libraries included in the 2005 edition or for 2000 server with .NET to host ISS 6.

It doesnt end and im sure it's all deviously planned. Though hopefully this strategy will just push more people towards open source!

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi phantomp,

I'm afraid open source, particularly Linux has to become more usable before people are willing to adopt it and drop what they are currently comfortable with (Windows, Mac OS etc). However there is a convergence here; users are becoming more tech savy and OS technology is getting easier to use - this is the window of opportunity that the open souce community must look at ceasing if they are going to establish themselves on the map. Remember people will always pay for what they know and are comfortable with, so the fact that open source is free is not enough.

Dave

#### n9352527

Joined Oct 14, 2005
1,198
... or the fact that it is just so frickin' difficult to buy a naked PC. Almost all PCs sold are preloaded with XP currently, and only a select few has an option for bundling Linux and almost none will sell naked PC. There are rumours circulating that bundling other OSs or selling naked PC affect the system integrators discounts given by M$. M$ will have you believe that the reason is to prevent piracy and that everyone will want XP anyway. Others argue that it makes people complacent. There's just no incentive for most people to look for an alternative OS when their PCs already come preloaded with XP and working.

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi n9352527,

I agree about the problems with purchasing of a naked-PC. But I like many of my friends are fairly tech-savy, enough so that we rather build a PC than buy one off a shelf - sadly our experience with Linux is that at times it is just too awkward to get working as well as a Windows machine. Now think of your grandad who is barely able to turn a PC on, he just just wants a machine that wraps him in cottonwool and lets him do what he wants - when you consider some of the operational difficulties that some Linux users (myself included have had) its probably a good idea that the manufacturers don't supply with Linux OS installed.

That said I really do like Linux when I finally get it working, I just wish they would focus on the ease of usability - even as a fairly advanced PC user I don't want to spend half my day trying to work out what the heck is going on.

As for business tactics between MS and the manufacturers to promote vender-lockin, well thats another story...

Dave

#### n9352527

Joined Oct 14, 2005
1,198
Yeah, I used to build my own systems as well, until I realised that most of the time I ended up spending roughly the same amount of money compared to buying ready-made systems (which include OSs and have warranties) from a big system manufacturer (you can guess which (evil?) company it is ).

Granted that sometimes I didn't get exactly what I wanted. But I can live with that, I rarely have exact requirements or require bleeding edge machines. Just something to get me by and do what ever work or tasks I have in hand.

I actually have a few surplus XP licenses as the results of changing the OSs of some machines to Linux. Someone told me that I am not allowed to flog them online, the EULA forbids any transfer of license. I personally haven't verified this yet, reading those small prints and long legalese paragraphs gives me a headache. Given the choice, I think I prefer spending time decoding assembly codes instead

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
I actually have a few surplus XP licenses as the results of changing the OSs of some machines to Linux. Someone told me that I am not allowed to flog them online, the EULA forbids any transfer of license. I personally haven't verified this yet, reading those small prints and long legalese paragraphs gives me a headache. Given the choice, I think I prefer spending time decoding assembly codes instead
What you say there n9352527 is correct as far as my understanding goes. If the Windows version is an OEM version then clearly it is tied to the hardware and therefore transferal is impossible. But I have heard of cases where someone has raises the question of license transfer for fully licensed versions of Windows XP and they were told that this violated the original EULA. It is probably buried about 4000 words into the EULA written in some hybrid of ancient-English and Latin!

This could be considered another form of vendor lock-in, but I'm not going to get political

Dave

#### beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Hi Dave,

I'm going to face this issue at some point in the future. I have an OEM copy of XP. I took that computer back to 98 when I got a new machine. One day, though, I will upgrade the motherboard, and reinstall the copy of XP. It will be interesting to see MS's reaction. I may have to stick the OEM lisence to the case, but why should that prevent my modifying the insides?

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi Dave,

I'm going to face this issue at some point in the future. I have an OEM copy of XP. I took that computer back to 98 when I got a new machine. One day, though, I will upgrade the motherboard, and reinstall the copy of XP. It will be interesting to see MS's reaction. I may have to stick the OEM lisence to the case, but why should that prevent my modifying the insides?
Hi beenthere,

You will find it likely that the OEM version of Windows XP will indentify the change of hardware and actively prevent you from installing Windows - this is an intrinsic design feature of OEM versions of Windows. I know of people who have made minor hardware modifications to their system only for the OEM version of Windows to reject the installation on the basis that it doesn't recognise the hardware as the one it is licensed to. This is certainly a bigger problem if the upgrade is a motherboard as oppose to a hard drive for instance.

You will have some fun with it!

Dave

#### beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Hi Dave,

Well, that's one word for it. It will have to be the folks at MS who identify the changes. The whole of the computer's innards will be changed. Maybe the case, too. The hologram seal is affixed with cello tape.

Bill

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi Dave,

Well, that's one word for it. It will have to be the folks at MS who identify the changes. The whole of the computer's innards will be changed. Maybe the case, too. The hologram seal is affixed with cello tape.

Bill
You will probably find that MS will want proof that the hardware is no longer in use! To be honest, I think if you raise the issue with them they will just send you a new version of Windows in exchange for the original disc and license tag (hologram label, whatever it is called). You may be lucky and get a Vista upgrade bundled in for a few pennies more!

Dave

#### beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Hi Dave,

This is just supreme wierdness. I've heard tales, but it should be interesting to experience it first-hand.

#### Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,970
Hi Dave,

This is just supreme wierdness. I've heard tales, but it should be interesting to experience it first-hand.
Whats that, the OEM licensing procedure or bundling Vista for a few pennies?!!

Dave