# Crystal Oscillator

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Project Fringe, Nov 12, 2010.

1. ### Project Fringe Thread Starter New Member

Nov 12, 2010
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I am trying to build something but Im too stupid to understand this stuff so I need some help.

Basically I am trying to create a system that will produce a constant sine wave, frequency of somewhere between 420  440 hertz under water with the greatest amount of amp output possible.

I had the idea of building a large crystal oscillator in the shape of a tuning fork and applying a small amount of electricity (like is used in quartz clocks) to create an electronic oscillator. I want to create the highest amount of amps possible at this frequency.

Would the frequency of the crystal lower as the size of the crystal tuning fork increased?

The fundamental frequency I may be trying to reach is 42KHz, which is the resonate frequency of water. Basically I want to get the most effect in a large amount of water, so I was thinking that lowering the frequency to a harmonic of the fundamental frequency (maybe 420 hertz or 42 hertz) would allow me to increase the size of the crystal and therefore increase the amp output. I am not trying to break the water molecules, I just want to really excite them.

Would this best be accomplished by creating one huge crystal or multiple medium sized crystals?

What kind of electrical system would I need to use to set this whole thing up?

Could a magnetic amp be used in someway to increase the amp output?

This is a serious question. Any help would be much appreciated!

2. ### beenthere Retired Moderator

Apr 20, 2004
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Even though you state this is not to break down the water, you have got a very wrong figure for the resonance frequency to excite the water molecule. The microwave oven in your kitchen uses the correct frequency to couple energy into water to heat it - http://science.jrank.org/pages/5817/Resonance.html

What reference states that 42KHz is the resonant frequency for water? Why was it suggested that 42 KHz could not be produced directly? It's quite simple to make a 42 KHz oscillator.

Given that 42 KHz is not a resonance frequency, a big welding rig can push a substantial current through water. You can control current by changing the size of the electrodes.

The end effect is to heat some large quantity of water. What is the purpose?

Forgive us if we are a bit suspicious of motivations when trying to somehow strongly excite water molecules. This has enough wrong information in the methodology that it seems related to an overunity application. The overunity breakdown of water into its gaseous components is not possible. Please read through the material at the link - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=28067

Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
3. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
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As beenthere has said, the actual oscillator and amperage is a trivial problem. Making a simple sine wave oscillator stable can be done many ways. A crystal is directly analogous to a tuning fork, but a crystal is much smaller.

4. ### Project Fringe Thread Starter New Member

Nov 12, 2010
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Well I made a video showing the basics of what I am trying to do:
You can read in the description how I did it but I used 44 htz.

I want to recreate this same effect but on a really large scale not using really modern technology if possible. I thought about using a really big sub but I don't think it would have enough power so I thought maybe multiple tuning forks like this one but maybe bigger would be a better way to go:
http://www.crystalsingingbowls.com/...ode=MEDTUN&Category_Code=4AATUN&Store_Code=CT

I have to put the whole thing under water as well so that is another reason I thought a crystal would work better to create the frequency. I know you can make crystal resonate with a small amount of electricity.

And you can see from this other video here (not mine):
When you place a tuning fork in water it creates a similar effect.

Any thoughts?

Apr 20, 2004
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6. ### thatoneguy AAC Fanatic!

Feb 19, 2009
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When you refer to "Amp", do you mean amplitude of mechanical oscillation, or amperes of electrical current?

7. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
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Looking at the video he want mechanical movement. It is basically an ultrasonic cleaning bath.

To the OP, it has other real world uses, and can be bought commercially. Generally it is a stainless steel box that jewelers and electronics types use to clean with.

8. ### retched AAC Fanatic!

Dec 5, 2009
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I think he wants it as a magic trick or a show piece of some sort..

What is the final product?

9. ### Project Fringe Thread Starter New Member

Nov 12, 2010
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Sorry but I think you may be wrong about the microwave. This info comes from wikipedia:
"A microwave oven works by passing non-ionizing microwave radiation, usually at a frequency of 2.45 gigahertz (GHz)a wavelength of 122 millimetres (4.80 in)through the food. Microwave radiation is between common radio and infrared frequencies. Water, fat, and other substances in the food absorb energy from the microwaves in a process called dielectric heating. Many molecules (such as those of water) are electric dipoles, meaning that they have a positive charge at one end and a negative charge at the other, and therefore rotate as they try to align themselves with the alternating electric field of the microwaves. This molecular movement represents heat which is then dispersed as the rotating molecules hit other molecules and put them into motion.
Microwave heating is more efficient on liquid water (than on frozen water, where the molecules are not free to rotate) and on fats and sugars (which have a smaller molecular dipole moment).[6] Microwave heating is sometimes explained as a resonance of water molecules, but this is incorrect: such resonance only occurs in water vapor at much higher frequencies, at about 20 GHz.[7] Moreover, large industrial/commercial microwave ovens operating at the common large industrial-oven microwave heating frequency of 915 MHzwavelength 328 millimetres (12.9 in)also heat water and food perfectly well.[8]"

Plus if a microwave just used the resonant frequency of water to heat food then if I put something else in the microwave which does not contain water then nothing should happen right?

10. ### retched AAC Fanatic!

Dec 5, 2009
5,201
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Nothing does happen.

Put talcum powder in the microwave. Or just a dry plate.

It will not heat.

That was an old trick in science class 30 years ago.

11. ### t06afre AAC Fanatic!

May 11, 2009
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Put a pencil in the microwave and something will happen. If you are young you will probably get grounded for some times

12. ### jpanhalt Expert

Jan 18, 2008
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Which is it? The point being made by everyone is that your interest in the resonate frequency of water is misplaced. What you are seeing are effects of degassing (maybe) and ripples in a pond. Any resonance will be related to the container, not some molecular resonance of the water molecules.

John

13. ### retched AAC Fanatic!

Dec 5, 2009
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Well that has metal on it and GRAPHITE..

BILL_MARDEN, t06 is trying to make graphene in his mums microwave!

14. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
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Sounds like a done deal to me.

15. ### beenthere Retired Moderator

Apr 20, 2004
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As long as it is also nonmetallic - some ceramics get quite hot because the glaze has lead in it.

The thing is, a microwave oven uses a frequency that causes energy transfer to water molecules. This can and has been well established for many years. Where is your source that proves any resonance effect at 42 KHz? Do recall that your tuning fork is dissipating mechanical energy.

So, what is the point of this?

16. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
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To the OP,

You are confusing basic response with resonance, as is the author who claims a microwave is a resonant action. Radio waves make the water molecule rotate, this is a mechanical reaction. But a very wide range of RF will do the same thing, so it isn't resonance. Resonance is something very special, it is a kind of coupling at a natural frequency where energy transfer is at its greatest. One sign of true resonance is the material will emit the same frequency if stimulated properly, as with a laser. Trying to claim a microwave uses resonance is like feeding electricity into an electric motor and declaring that to be a resonant process, it does not follow.

Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
17. ### jpanhalt Expert

Jan 18, 2008
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There are lots of ways to view what the term "resonance" means. If you look at it from the standpoint of absorbing light, there is no requirement for the oscillator that absorbs the energy to re-emit it in the same form. There are plenty of non-radiative mechanisms (e.g., heat) to get rid of the energy.

Back to the question of water resonance in the microwave portion of the spectrum: I think these links help resolve whether there is a "resonance" in the liquid phase at a few GHz.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/molecule/rotrig.html#c3

We learned many years ago that quantum rules governing absorption in the microwave region (rotations) were no different than for visible (electronic) or infrared (vibration) absorptions. It was just that the energy levels for rotations were spaced very closely together, particularly for non-rigid molecules.

In other words, beenthere's use of the term resonance and the gas phase resonance referred to in Wikipedia are probably both correct. It is just that the frequency used in microwave ovens is not specific for water. Water is, however, the most common small molecule in food that one heats in a microwave.

The critical thing related to the OP's proposition is that at the frequencies he is using, the "resonance" he is seeing in not that of a water molecule stretching, bending, or rotating.

John