Got it, Thank you.
So the 12-2 run in TS case is carrying 120 on black (hot), 120 on neutral (white) and then has the bare/green earth ground? I thought 240 needed an extra wire usually a red one. Oh, never mind I asked google I see having a neutral is not required for 240 so it can run the second 120.

Yes and that is where the problem or violation of NEC started. The thread starter should have run 12-3 W/Ground. Had he done that he would have no problem having 120 VAC at his irrigation pump site.

Something else I am not real sure of is if irrigation pumps require GFCI? I can't see it required by NEC but I might be missing it plus my last NEC book was the 2008 edition.

Ron

 

think about it pull any 220-240 plug out of a wall! How many wires do you see.........THREE!
Brzrkr

You are absolutely correct. But that is because it is a 240V socket. NOT 2 x 120V sockets. In that case, you would need FOUR wires.

 

Here in Oz, we have 240V per phase, and if you hook across them, you get 415V as it is actual phases, not a center tapped transformer.
I remember when I was over there many years ago, discussing this with an electrician and he had no idea on phases. It seems the qualifications differ as my boss was visiting a cannery there, and an electrician working int the factory has 3 weeks training to qualify.
Here it is a few years.
Just from interest, what is the voltage in the US for 3 phase connections?

Oz is similar to the UK where I got my training, the residential supply is from a 3 phase transformer with the star neutral grounded.
It was customary back then to wire every so many residences on one of the 1 phases in an effort to balance the supply.
In Oz I believe they use the 415v 3ph to achieve the same thing.
In US the industrial 3 phase is typically 460-480 in Canada the industrial 3ph goes to 580-600v .
Max.

 

If you have a 220-240 (what ever you want to call it) Anything in your house go pull the plug and stick a meter on one hot side and the ground and tell me what you get... I'll tell you what you get 110-120v, now stick to the other side and the ground then tell me what you get, I'll tell you 110-120v. You can split a 220-240v and get 110-120v don't tell me you can't. I said I knew nothing about electronics not electricity.
Sorry Max I'm talking USA
Brzrkr

 

If you have a 220-240 (what ever you want to call it) Anything in your house go pull the plug and stick a meter on one hot side and the ground and tell me what you get... I'll tell you what you get 110-120v, now stick to the other side and the ground then tell me what you get, I'll tell you 110-120v. You can split a 220-240v and get 110-120v don't tell me you can't. I said I knew nothing about electronics not electricity.
Brzrkr

Nobody is disputing it, the issue is whether it conforms to code when you misuse it!
Lost cause!
Max. (licensed Industrial Electrician).

 

If you have a 220-240 (what ever you want to call it) Anything in your house go pull the plug and stick a meter on one hot side and the ground and tell me what you get... I'll tell you what you get 110-120v, now stick to the other side and the ground then tell me what you get, I'll tell you 110-120v. You can split a 220-240v and get 110-120v don't tell me you can't. I said I knew nothing about electronics not electricity.
Sorry Max I'm talking USA
Brzrkr

Why do you keep bringing this up? No one is disputing it, but it doesn't change the underlying safety concerns regarding neutral/ground distinctions.

 

Maybe this will help.
In processor systems, when you have analog and digital together, it is good practice to have separate "gnd" connections for each. They are only connected at one point. Yes, it theory, they are the same, but the design is to keep digital currents way from the analog signals so get much better noise figures.
And in amplifiers, a similar system exists to keep hum and noise low.
It is very common to have same potential circuitry isolated except for one point to enhance the operation or allow some special function.
In the case of the mains, the ground wire should carry no current. If it does, there is a fault condition, and detecting that current can be used to signal such a condition and drop the power.

 

I'm wondering where you all are getting all these wires you keep talking about from
In the US you have three wires for 110 and you have three wires for 220. What codes are you talking about ?
The question was can you split a 220-240v and get 110-120v. I said yes but was told NO This is were I'm at.
Brzrkr

 

Technically, yes, you can.
But legally, no, you cannot.
I can't see why you are still having trouble with that.
If you want to split the 240V to 2 x 120V, an neutral extra wire from the neutral bar in the switchboard must be run.
As has been said MANY times. you must not use the earth wire. Why is that not plain to you?
Whether you like it or not, that is the regulation, and the common sense way to do it. Using the earth as a power wire, and if anything goes wrong, you will have no legal protection at all from injured party. That in itself should be enough reason, even if you choose to ignore all the technical advice here.

 

I'm wondering where you all are getting all these wires you keep talking about from
In the US you have three wires for 110 and you have three wires for 220. What codes are you talking about ?
The question was can you split a 220-240v and get 110-120v. I said yes but was told NO This is were I'm at.
Brzrkr

My car can reach speeds of up to 150mph. If asked if I can travel over 100 on the highway, I could say yes. But I’m likely to cause an accident for which I’d be liable. If I’m not arrested by the police.

So I could answer yes.
But the correct answer is no.

 

Total of four conductors.
(L1) 120-Neutral -(L2) 120 with Neutral connected to Earth ground = 4 conductors.
240v between L1 & L2.
In the diagram the neutral shows a earth ground symbol, this is the earth (4th) conductor this is the one that shall not be used as conductor intentionally.
Max.

 

Wow. Seems that I opened a can of worms! Haha! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I will plug the controller in at the garage and make the relay connection there. That make the most sense. However, I have a question regarding Max's comment about using a step down transformer. How does that work and you provide a link to one?

 

Have you looked inside your controller to see if it has a 240V option?
It will have its own transformer, and some manufacturers use a 120/240V selectable transformer.
And yes, The Worms have been let out

 

However, I have a question regarding Max's comment about using a step down transformer. How does that work and you provide a link to one?

They're very commonly used by people who travel from the US to Europe.
https://voltage-converter-transform...MIhaGl1YWL4wIVhI2zCh0otgdwEAQYBSABEgL3pvD_BwE

The downside is that they'll have Euro-style plugs. They also sell 2:1 stepdown transformers; but they don't have plugs or receptacles.

Whatever you do, be aware that touching 240VAC will knock you on your rear. I've never had it happen to me, but I've seen it happen; up close. That has given me a healthy respect for 240VAC. I recall reading that 60Hz at that voltage is more harmful than 50Hz.

 

I'm wondering where you all are getting all these wires you keep talking about from
In the US you have three wires for 110 and you have three wires for 220. What codes are you talking about ?
The question was can you split a 220-240v and get 110-120v. I said yes but was told NO This is were I'm at.
Brzrkr

I almost feel like you're trolling us at this point. Just in case you're not, I'll make one last try at pointing out a distinction that might clarify things. It's the difference between 120V outlets, 240V outlets, and 120/240V outlets.

Obviously you're familiar with 120V plugs and appliances - they're ubiquitous in the US.

As for 240V appliances some of them only require 240V. Every single electrical component within the appliance runs on 240 - nothing inside requires 120V. Many ranges and ovens fall in this category, or at least older ones did for a long time. These appliances can run on 3 wires (2 hots + ground) and no current flows through the ground wire. If these are the outlets you keep telling us to look at, there's no surprise - we already know that's a 3 wire setup.

Other "240V" appliances have some internal components that require 120V, and should really be described as "120/240V" devices. I think a lot of clothes dryers fall in this category. These appliances use 120V for lighter loads like control circuitry, valves, indicator lights, etc. and use 240V for heavy loads like heating. The national electrical code requires that these machines have a 4 wire plug with 2 hots, 1 neutral, and one ground. The 240V circuits pull from the 2 hots, they 120V circuits pull from one hot and the neutral, and nothing except the chassis connects to the ground. It is only there for safety, and carries no current in normal operation.

As I said above, if you've got 240V outlets using 3 wires, that's expected. However, if you've got 120/240V outlets with only 3 wires, those are not up to current code. That system is old and no longer considered safe. The 4 wire system has been standard for my entire career, and I'm about to turn 43.

 

I had pretty much came to the same conclusion. Here is the relay I am planning on using.
Munro StartBox 24 Volt Pump Start Relay | MPSR24
https://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/...lays/murno-irrigation-pump-start-relay-mpsr24

This should work... correct?

John, that should work fine. The relay is rated for up to 5 HP. Good luck with the project. Be careful to turn off the breaker before doing any work on the circuit!

 

Wow. Seems that I opened a can of worms! Haha! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I will plug the controller in at the garage and make the relay connection there. That make the most sense. However, I have a question regarding Max's comment about using a step down transformer. How does that work and you provide a link to one?

If you didn't have a 120v outlet handy, you could use the 240v with a step-down transformer to provide the 120v. It sounds like your controller runs off of 24v and uses an external transformer to get that voltage. If that's the case, there may be an external transformer available that uses 240v as its input which would eliminate the need for a step-down transformer.

Step-down transformers are rated in VA. To spec one, find out how much current your controller draws multiply that by the voltage at which it runs. Add on ~20% for safety margin to get the minimum size necessary. You can go larger, but the prices go up quickly as you do.

Search the web for "240 to 120 volt step-down transformer" to find available offerings.

I'd avoid using the transformer. It just adds complexity with minimal advantage.

 

There are the two safe and legal options, both have been mentioned. One choice is to use a step down transformer to go from 240 to either 120 or 24 volts near the pump installation. If it is weatherproof then that could be one satisfactory choice. The other choice is to put the control timer and motor starting relay in a suitable enclosure inside the garage, near the circuit breaker panel. That would allow the use of a less expensive enclosure, and the control timer could be safely and legally powered from a separate circuit. It will also save the cost of a separate step-down transformer. I recommend this second approach because it keeps the controls inside a building.
In some localities it is mandatory to bring a neutral wire along with the two line wires when providing a 240 volt outlet or connection, because it avoids exactly this kind of problem.

 

Thanks to everyone for your help!!!! Good group of folks

 

Thanks to everyone for your help!!!! Good group of folks

Indeed! I've gotten so much help on so many projects. This place is an incredible resource, fueled by great people.