#### prairiemystic

Joined Jun 5, 2018
132
ESD damage can take weeks to show up - 2N7000's were eventually sent to Vishay for failure analysis. The products ran fine for about 2 weeks. Conclusion is the parts were likely damaged during pcb assembly and test handling. Not all companies have proper ESD control, you know conductive floor wax, foot straps etc.

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
A matter of packaging does not constitute grounds for a refund, IMHO, especially if there is no proof of damage. I'm not saying that the seller did well, but you are not right, either. Put yourself in the seller's shoes, and ask yourself if you would like a buyer to do that. Especially, think about the loss the seller may face due to components that probably were not damaged.

As others added, ESD wise, there is not much to do, and it may not be the seller's fault even at that.

Edit: You might want to check out the BSS138 instead, as an alternative.

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#### dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,914
A matter of packaging does not constitute grounds for a refund, IMHO, especially if there is no proof of damage.
I think it is and Ali Express dispute resolution agreed with me and issued a prompt refund. They usually make me jump through several hoops before siding with the seller.

If a reputable source like Newark, Jameco, ... sent improperly packaged parts, I'd request a refund from them too. If they wanted the parts back, it's on their dime.

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
I think it is and Ali Express dispute resolution agreed with me and issued a prompt refund. They usually make me jump through several hoops before siding with the seller.

If a reputable source like Newark, Jameco, ... sent improperly packaged parts, I'd request a refund from them too. If they wanted the parts back, it's on their dime.
You should note that Ali Express, like eBay, probably sides with the buyer by default.

By my experience, as an eBay seller, I dread the day that someone claims a product I've shipped to be damaged, despite all the bubble wrap and the photographic evidence proving otherwise. Usually, eBay sides with the buyer. And by allowing no return shipping it means that you are not willing to receive the product back from the buyer, but you still have to refund.

Ali probably (I would say certainly) did the same as eBay normally does, even if you, as the buyer, produced no proof of damage. Just because Ali Express sided with you, it doesn't mean you are right.

As for newark, Jameco, Mouser, Digikey, yes, you could try that stunt. It doesn't mean that you will have success, and most probably they will list you out as a potential buyer. I know I would blacklist someone that tried that stunt on me. As a seller, I can always refund someone immediately without even shipping the product. I have no qualms about that.

#### dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,914
Ali probably (I would say certainly) did the same as eBay normally does, even if you, as the buyer, produced no proof of damage. Just because Ali Express sided with you, it doesn't mean you are right.
I'm about 50:50 with Ali Express.
As for newark, Jameco, Mouser, Digikey, yes, you could try that stunt. It doesn't mean that you will have success, and most probably they will list you out as a potential buyer.
Newark sent me some IC's with mangled leads last year. I complained, sent pictures, and they issued a credit.

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
It is different when you send pictures of the damage, of course. But anyway, it is strange that Newark would send ICs like that. That doesn't seem professional on their part. ICs should be shipped within tubes. Unless they actually did so and the tubes got bent on the way, it is hard to imagine pins getting bent inside the tubes, so I'm assuming they were sent improperly.

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,809
From experience, it is very rare to gets chips in tubes from aliX. One vendor even stated on their ad that if you were concerned about bent pins then don't order. Really smarmy statement from a chip vendor who I hope is no longer in business.

#### redrooster01

Joined Jul 15, 2014
93
Talk about improper packaging! How's this for customer service! I bought a 100v stepdown transformer from a well-known family-owned Australian manufacturer, starting with Wall and ending with Cann. At the same time I was rebuilding a Sansui AU-D907FE amplifier that I had imported from Japan so it was about 3 weeks after I received the transformer in the post before I could use it. When I finished the rebuild and tested the amplifier I could hear a loud hum? At first, I thought it must be the amplifier? When I realized the hum was coming from the transformer I rang the company concerned and spoke to customer service who asked me for the serial number situated underneath the transformer, that's when I noticed a dent in the bottom cover and the corner bent in from what looks like a hard drop onto concrete? I took the top cover off and saw that the transformer plates had shifted like the pages of a book. My daughter was visiting so she sent a photo of the damage for me to the customer service guy who said he would send another one, I said (stupidly as it turned out) no, not yet, I will loosen the bolts and square it back up and see if that fixes the hum? I said, If it doesn't fix it I will get back to you. Well, it didn't fix it and the same customer service guy said when I rang back that it was suspicious that I didn't contact him immediately about this originally although I had explained to him about me working on the amplifier before I could use it? Then he asked me to send him a video of the Hum! I explained I was 67 Y/O and I didn't know how to do that and my daughter was away on holidays and he already had confirmation of the damage in the photo's my daughter sent him? He said that he needs the video as evidence that needs to put before a panel of heads of the company for a replacement or refund, I reminded him that this was a $54 item, not$54,000, he then insinuated that I was a criminal and a liar and I was thinking he hadnt been taking his medication. lol This company makes good gear but lets itself down with bad packaging and a skitzophrenic customer service.

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#### dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,914
it is hard to imagine pins getting bent inside the tubes, so I'm assuming they were sent improperly.
It was improper handling. Some of the chips in cut down tubes which meant someone had to handle them.

If a reputable company can have problems, it's completely possible for some clueless seller to be mishandling ESD sensitive parts. The chips from Newark were CMOS, so I could have premature failures in parts that didn't have bent pins.

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#### peterdeco

Joined Oct 8, 2019
251
We just received 10 relays as samples from Ali. They were loose in a bag with all the pins flattened against the bottom. We use these on a circuit board that we have 500 made per run. The thought of straightening pins on 500 relays is absurd. I won't even test them.

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
Modern CMOS ICs have some form of static protection in them, unlike in the olden days. I've ordered hundreds of ICs from Mouser, Digikey and Farnell, and none of them failed. No reports of failing products whatsoever. I wouldn't worry too much.

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
Wouldn't the protection diodes that you find in modern ICs prevent just that? I know that the metalization layer is very fragile, but the protection diodes are found very close to the bond wires, and have thick metal pads on them.

#### dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,914
Wouldn't the protection diodes that you find in modern ICs prevent just that?
Not necessarily. They test for a couple thousand volts and ESD discharges can be significantly higher.
I know that the metalization layer is very fragile, but the protection diodes are found very close to the bond wires, and have thick metal pads on them.
It depends on the process. I worked in IC design for most of my career and was closely involved with design rules for the last couple decades. At around 180nm or 130nm, the reversed biased diodes that we used to protect gate oxides during manufacture were no longer effective. The gate oxide would rupture before the diode broke down, so we started using some grounded source grounded gate N channel MOSFETs to provide protection (no one could explain in a way I could understand how that device could turn on). They took more area, so I know a manufacturer wouldn't do that unless it was necessary.

Metal lines have gotten narrower and narrower as device sizes have shrunk and the gate oxide has gotten thinner. The last process I saw images for was around 65nm and there wasn't a strong defining line where polysilicon gate ended and the gate oxide started.

#### DickCappels

Joined Aug 21, 2008
6,657
It is pretty simple: If you are buying for the fun and adventure of seeing what you get, you can buy from anybody, but if you have a serious use and your time is worth or costs money, go through an authorized distributor. Otherwise, you have nobody to support you, other than the occasional refund, but how does that help you after wasting time and energy to find out the product was not what you expected?

#### bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,423
Completely on point. That's why the reasonable course of action is to get chips from reputable sources. When buying from eBay, Ali Express, Alibaba, etc, one has to expect the products to be counterfeits, show bad quality, have defects, or all at the same time. After all, you get what you paid for.

That is why I buy from Mouser or Digikey, or from Farnell sometimes. Then I don't get to complain.

#### splud

Joined Jun 30, 2013
16
We just received 10 relays as samples from Ali. They were loose in a bag with all the pins flattened against the bottom. We use these on a circuit board that we have 500 made per run. The thought of straightening pins on 500 relays is absurd. I won't even test them.
I presume you're buying from some vendor on Ali (AliExpress or Alibaba?) because it is so much cheaper than ordering the parts from a distributor with actual source traceability? Frankly, Ali is alright for hobbyists looking to get a bunch of parts for their personal endevours for cheap. I'd really question anyone sourcing parts from there for commercial production.

And, kudos for getting _samples_ from some vendor on Ali. One would expect someone sending samples, in the hopes of making larger continued sales would have taken the time to ensure that shipment was good, even if their subsequent ones weren't. This is why you order samples before committing to a large purchase.

I track my orders, and inventory them. If I subsequently use something and find failures, I know which vendor I got those parts from. As a rule, I spot-check components from AliExpress within a day or two of receiving them before acknlowledging receipt (and yes, sometimes I find failures afterwards). I don't do this with Digikey, Arrow, Newark, Mouser, Avnet, etc - I check against the packing list, but otherwise expect it's all legit, because it's never been otherwise (for me at least).

If I get a power supply unit, I bench test all of them, and verify they're within spec clear up to the rated output. Some AliExpress vendors sell good stuff. A lot don't.

AliExpress is appealing - I can get 100x BSS138 on a cut tape for US$0.78 which is about what I'd pay for THREE through DigiKey, or for the same number at quantity pricing, DigiKey would still be 10x as much as Ali. If they don't test good, I'm not out a ton of money. Thread Starter #### dl324 Joined Mar 30, 2015 11,914 As to the OP - DO NOT buy off of AliExpress or eBay or any other site where you're not dealing with an authorized distributor if you're this effin' picky. I bought from Ali Express because I wouldn't pay$3 for one level shifter and I didn't want to take the time to make my own:

I expect proper packaging from whoever I buy from.

Demanding a refund because they "may" be damaged (but never tested as such) because the packaging wasn't up to your expectations is wrong.
You're entitled to your opinion, but Ali Express dispute resolution and I disagree with you.

EDIT:
AND you still have parts which I'm sure you'll be putting to use.
You are wrong. Why are you defaming me? You don't even know me.

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#### dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,914
Another defective item from a different seller.

I was fortunate that the boot slid back from one that I was checking or I might not have noticed the rust until it was too late to get a refund.

I bought 60 and more than half were bad enough for me to complain.

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#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
2,809
Haven't seen that but did get some that the jaws didn't close all the way. As I keep reminding myself, you get what you paid for...