Hey, I don't have a problem with AAC's desire to protect themselves from liability but can we please loose the hair trigger?

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=54239

A 120VAC to 240VAC (UL) transformer would have been an appropriate and accepted solution for this man's question. It also would have satisfied AAC's requirement of line (Mains) isolation.

 

The problem as I saw it is he had opened this bulb up and took pictures, and was wanting to modify the circuit itself. This puts it firmly outside the TOS. I would love to discuss these circuits hypothetically, but at this point too many people want to build them.

 

If sealed in a case, and properly designed, such circuits are safe and reliable. If the intention was to modify it directly, it could be risky, but I see no harm in a tiny 1:2 step-down transformer being used to operate it on a lower or higher voltage...

 

Again, it wasn't sealed. How do you think he took pictures? By breaking that case open, it was in violation of the TOS.

I understand the urge to open it up, I share it from time to time.

If he had just asked he would have gotten the transformer recommendation, but that is obviously not what he wanted. He wanted to modify the circuit itself. The TOS is clear on this subject.

 

Hey, I don't have a problem with AAC's desire to protect themselves from liability but can we please loose the hair trigger?

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=54239

A 120VAC to 240VAC (UL) transformer would have been an appropriate and accepted solution for this man's question. It also would have satisfied AAC's requirement of line (Mains) isolation.

To be perfectly honest, I agree that AAC is a bit touchy on the "hair trigger." I can understand the liability issues, but it may be creating more problems than it is solving. For example, if I was the OP of this thread (link above) if no one would help me do it safely, I'd try to do it myself. This could very well lead to serious injury or death on my part. But AAC isn't liable, so everything's okay, right? I don't think so. In this hypothetical example, AAC may actually be the reason for a disabled (or dead) member, and I don't think you'd all want that on your conscience
I am not trying to be disrespectful, and I apologize if that is how I sound. Overall I agree with all of the terms of use, but the "LEDs to mains" is a bit questionable in my mind. Perhaps it would be possible to set up a liability waiver sort of thing that a new member would have to sign when setting up an account? I think this could solve a lot of problems, and it would allow experienced members to assist newbies safely, so as to avoid injury. It is a win-win for everyone involved.
Just an idea to consider
Regards,
Der Strom

 

To be perfectly honest, I agree that AAC is a bit touchy on the "hair trigger." I can understand the liability issues, but it may be creating more problems than it is solving.

Don't you know someone you wouldn't trust to modify a circuit connected to the mains? Haven't you directed inexperienced technicians to do a task only to find out they were not safety conscience?

People that openly admit being a novice and want to tinker with the mains ... will not get anything other than a safety lecture from me. It would end with ... the a$$ you save maybe your own.

 

If he had just asked he would have gotten the transformer recommendation, but that is obviously not what he wanted. He wanted to modify the circuit itself. The TOS is clear on this subject.

Yes Bill, but he was also receptive to a low voltage battery solution.

I wish I could swap out a couple things to make it 110v or just add a resister or something to make it DC battery powered.

 

Given his circuit had an edison socket as part of the package, what are the odds?

Our moderators are a reasonable bunch. You could PM them and point this out, then help the guy find the DC solution.

 

You guys are not stopping to think about the number of young people that
are on the Forum. There are the one's they know about and other that they
can't be sure. Think about the level of post in the past 6 months. Do you want young
family members pulling the house meter or testing the 200 amp breaker box
of a lot of properties. I don't know for sure and don't need an answer but I
know the age level has dropped .Even older students don't need to be messing
with stuff. There is years of experience on this Forum that know the harm that
can be prevented. There are good debating points,but that don't change the
facts about safety. If there was not good reason you know the Mods would
not spoil your fun. You have to belief in there safety standards,an attorney
would have no promlem finding them thru the courts. Be safe,be happy.

 

Don't you know someone you wouldn't trust to modify a circuit connected to the mains? Haven't you directed inexperienced technicians to do a task only to find out they were not safety conscience?

Absolutely, but what is stopping them if we don't help here on AAC? Please, keep the safety speech--That part is a very good idea and may solve many problems--but closing the thread will likely send them off to do the project without any knowledge of what they are doing. If you ask me, this is more dangerous than simply explaining to them how to do it safely.
Der Strom

 

You guys are not stopping to think about the number of young people that
are on the Forum.

That is actually one of the first things I thought about. For example, I started with electronics when I was about twelve years old--My very first real project was a tesla coil that ran off of mains power. Yes, it was dangerous, and I knew that, but it didn't stop me. If someone on a forum told me not to do it until I was older, I wouldn't have listened. It is precisely children at these ages who are in the most danger. Being a member on a forum where people could help them build projects safely would be extremely beneficial, not only to their project but to their personal safety, as well.
Der Strom

 

Absolutely, but what is stopping them if we don't help here on AAC?

Just because the forum moderators are directed by the Forum Rules to close such threads doesn't mean you, as an individual, can't assist via another medium. Nothing will stop someone from doing something stupid. I'll cite the Darwin Awards as evidence of those disregarding advice.

Bertus, upon receiving a note from the op, continued to express why the thread was closed. Bertus also directed the OP, if they were still interested in DC powered LED circuits, to Bill's Blog. Maybe the OP is reading Bill's Blog right now to further "spark" their interest in the LED circuits.

Bertus did the right thing. Even if I owned this forum and I disagreed with Bertus, I'd still stand behind his decision.

 

While I am new here I have to completely agree with the moderators on snapping that thread shut tight. The last thing we should be doing is advising beginners on working with the AC line voltage in any form.

I had a similar situation on an aquarium forum when I suggested replacing burned out ballast modules with the ballast from an inexpensive light from any major retailer. (Tank lights are a specialty item and cost $$$).

However, I would not give details on exactly how to do this (and I was repeatedly asked) because if you have to ask "how" then you don't have the experience to do the task.

 

With two of these transformers he could have solved his problem.

http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=7838+TR
or
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=7839+TR


Yes, I've backed out of HV threads when it became clear to me that the OP was clueless, and that no matter how I tried to enlighten him he'd still be clueless. However, this OP was never given the chance to determine how adept he is.

 

maybe there could be two types of membership. a normal and advanced.
the normal could allow access to all the regular forums, the advanced to one extra forum where these things can be discussed.
advanced membership could be decided with a simple test to check peoples level of knowlegde, and a disclaimer.

 

Just because the forum moderators are directed by the Forum Rules to close such threads doesn't mean you, as an individual, can't assist via another medium. Nothing will stop someone from doing something stupid. I'll cite the Darwin Awards as evidence of those disregarding advice.

Bertus, upon receiving a note from the op, continued to express why the thread was closed. Bertus also directed the OP, if they were still interested in DC powered LED circuits, to Bill's Blog. Maybe the OP is reading Bill's Blog right now to further "spark" their interest in the LED circuits.

Bertus did the right thing. Even if I owned this forum and I disagreed with Bertus, I'd still stand behind his decision.

Thank you for posting this, as I was unaware that any of this took place. I am only suggesting that simply ending the thread and giving no more assistance could lead to dangerous situations.

 

Guys, this was discussed for years. LEDs and line AC have always been taboo here, at least for the duration of my stay. Second guessing isn't helping. It can and does, however, escalate argument wise, which is futile.

This is not a new policy out of the blue. It really isn't that controversial. We are going to see more threads like it over time though, since the tech is going that way with high power LEDs.

When it happens, they will be closed.

 

Theres no reason not to also direct them to another forum where these things are discussed, such as electro-tech or 4hv.
I've also noticed that a new member is much more likely to get his thread closed than an active one.

 

So its OK if someone else kills them as long as it is not us?

This decision was made because it is unsafe, just like building a power supply without using a transformer. We get lots of those too, and they are also are promptly shut down.

If you have to ask how, you shouldn't be doing it. You need to learn more basics.

The TOS is very plain, argument with it isn't going to work. It was arrived at after a very long debate (and a banning or two).

 

No, but different sites have different policies, and if they're not motivated, then AAC has stopped them, and all is well. If they are motivated like DerStrom, they will either wing it, or they will search for help else-ware, and we have clearly shown them how and why it's dangerous, so why not point them in a direction where they can get help at their own risk if they so choose. Those sites have their policies, and AAC has it's, theres no reason for AAC to not acknowledge this. I've seen a member banned from 4hv because he wanted to build a "shock toy", so they DO have moderators and rules. If nothing else mention that there are other forums out there where the rules are different. I agree that the thread should be closed as laid out in AAC's TOS, but if another site is willing to help them, why not let them. If it's obvious that the person is in over their head, they will be discouraged their too.

Like DerStrom, my first project was directly connected to the mains, and it was well before I joined here, plugging something in isn't hard to do, if someone wants to, they will.

My earlier comment was referring to the fact that I currently have a thread going about a variac in a power supply, to which the only comment was to remember that it wasn't isolated and that it could be lethal. If this had been a new poster or an inept poster, it would have been locked, so there is some level of judgment that goes into whether or not a thread gets closed. I was also surprised that my plasma speaker threads weren't closed.