Back to Superprobe design

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
So, I am referring over the two weeks old theme from PS section as it much more refers to measurements not a power.

The task was to design an optically isolated oscilloscope probe working at multiple GHz scale and giving more than 100 kV DC bias-caused security between 16 channels, and having an expectable small crosstalk between channels, means cross-capacitance. Thus only way to fulfil is fiber optics.

Now, few days after the Bremen Space Tech exhibition I may refer to the precised names of core-importance components: it must be Emcore 2651E receiver (4GHz) and Emcore 1933 or 1935 linear laser transmitter (4 GHz). In the input I went away from the FET with a tears in eyes, but only bjt have a cheap 90 GHz and 0,03 pF exemplare at 0,1 USD named BFU910FX. Thus, for now I meditate about the transmitter part circuitry.

Firstly, no doubt, it ought to incorporate the Wilson 4-transistor type of current mirror. Input then is between Vcc and upper shoulder bjt base, where the some 1,6 V a least voltage is unavoidable against Vcc. Therefore ought take one such mirror in input wire and other identical in braiding line. Thus the voltage between input terminals will be brilliant zero, or other wording - the DC measurement capability is set on.

But there I struck. Because i(c max) for those modern days wunderbars are 15 mA only. Therefore laser which needs a 150 mA have to be fed somehow rather tricky, simply not exist any other more amperage standing transistors except the diamond-semiconductor what are too slow in their way to shelves (invented about 2005).

One idea was ignored from very beginning, it is add the ten emitter followers working on common load. Ignored because of the slow reaction expected and need to apply the surplus emitter resistors of few Ohm tenths what makes a GHz scale PCB patch lengths problematic. However may be it was too fast so cut own tail??

Other idea is to duplicate all the right side of circuit (fig 4) at www.planetanalog.com/an-analog-tutorial-current-sources/?f_src=planetanalog_section_3065 somehow ten-fold in the raw like here in the second figure from the top https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Analogue_Electronics/Current_Mirrors/Wilson . Like soldiers in the death-battle. So adding a 20 surplus bjt~s. So, now I started to think what about the frequency here? Didnt I just killed a frequency response 10-fold?? At least with the mosfets in normal halfbridge output cascade it would happen for 1000% sure.

By the way, it may be possible to substitute the 90 GHz F(T) to 65 GHz and then the BFP620F; E; H; FH are available for 80 mA. Only two may carry the amperage. But if to put much different made bjts where it must be matched it will certainly give a problems of "random character". Or put all bjts of this kind will bring a problem of input current so big that may change the DUT.

Probably is worth to add the cacsode for amplification??

Your ideas how to overcome this problem without of killing the Gigahertzes are impatiently awaited.

P.S. More, at the max V(ce)=3V there are no much options as to put the pull-up resistors as 100 Ohm. Thus the input active resistance between coaxial braiding to central wire stands 200 Ohms and no way how to 50 or 75 Ohms. Yet my hope is that is rather unimportant as the physical distance between the transistor and point of DUT be measured may easily be some 2...3...5 mm and for 3 GHz or 100 mm lambda it makes a 1:20 or 1:40 of lambda. Thus to conjugating the impedances is no any need. Am I true?
 
Last edited:

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
54 views and none comments????
:(
I am here just because of I have none with whom to talkabout the new ideas before it have been ripe
 

kubeek

Joined Sep 20, 2005
5,795
Well, I have trouble deciphering what you are actually talking about. Looks like you want to convert the measured signal straight to optical fibre and then back to voltage?
Wouldn´t DC offset be an issue? How do you plan to get the isolated side supplied with power, while keeping the isolation votage and low capacitance?
 

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
RE: kubeek: When the DC bias between channels is multiple kilovolts it is problem. Absolute problem. And even more problem when measured signal is volt or about. Then one channel is say 0V and 0,1V, other channel leads are 50 000 V and 50 000.1 Volt, third channel is 3200 V and 3201 Volt etc etc (oscilloscope of course is one common for all channels). Therefore optoisolation is must to be. It cannot be substituted by isolation trafos.
And taking in account the damn price of such probes made by Rode&Schwartz etc when I need probably some 50 or 100 such of them at nearest future, I have no other choice as to build it up myself.
 

kubeek

Joined Sep 20, 2005
5,795
Yes I understand that. But the transmitter and receiver basically make an optoucoupler, where the CTR will probably vary a lot with temperature, causing changes in both offset and gain between the input and output.
The transmitter part will be battery powered?
 

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
Sure, battery powered.

Optocoupler never is giving the better isolation as tiny few kV so it is boldly dangerous. Other, it always is too slow, even tens of MHz is much but 100 MHz I am not doubt it is possible al all. Only LED in the fiber gives near the GHz, the Word fastest is AFBR-1531 with 7 nsec front and next fastest is HFBR-1531 with 10 nsec.

Thus, the laser fiber transmitters are solely survivors in communication techniques.

Other, if the parasythic capacitance between input and output at optocoupler may stand 0,1...1 pF range, at 50 000 Volt difference it is deadly on the place.The 0.001 pF even would be too much.

CTR - who cares about. Oscillo is the thingy for make a judgements over the timing and form of signals not an absolute values. However this is one of the important cornerstones telling the laser must be operated in constant current mode and mustbe highly linear as those I specified. And from this is deduced the Wilson mirror with it`s high frequency = four bjt topology.
Or probably Vidlar circuit gives a better chances to multiply the output current?
 
Last edited:

be80be

Joined Jul 5, 2008
2,072
Remember these
500_photo.220.200.jpg

100 kV even with fiber isolation the above no where near a gHz band but wouldn't you want a long handle on the probe end just saying
we use gloves that cover the whole arm to hook up 13,000 volts to step down transformer

These are 5GHz
5297765.jpg

Making a probe with one thats 100Kv be fun.
 
Last edited:

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
The arm insulator is not my affair. Let use what ever want.

But LED-type of HFBR1524 You made a picture have yet 5 MBaud according the datasheet, but signal front is up to 140 nsec, thus not recommend for faster signals like some 10 MHz. Sorry. My found LCD was two ordes of magnitude faster, but those laser I refer was 4 orders faster. Yet LOOKS it indeed roughly the same and cost some 8 USD only. Need to grow along the modern technologies. By the way, not all fiber-destination lasers may be used for analog signal. Many are so un-linear, that only digital zeros and ones may be used for. Those I specified I got label from famous ZinWave-ORU analog via optics communication unit after I opened all 8 screws under it.

After that transmitter is going into glass fiber, what is insert-in or plug-out style a detail, thus the customer makes a decision do he will apply the 5 cm long pigtail or 50 meter long for security or just because he wants so.

By the way, long ago I was in electronic microscope servicing job. Old russian (more specific Ukrainian, as Sumi plant stayed near Kharkiv) used 380 kV on cathode (anode there is ground). And 12 V the filament voltage was need to adjust down that damn voltage. Then we used, of course, taken off security panels as it was hundreds of screws before get those potentiometer opened, what must be adjusted. And switched on/off by means of central packet lever some 30 meters afar. Need to say, hairs was staying up in-spite of the distance, brutally physically because of the E-field not a psychologically. Then looking via binocular read the tester results, switched off, waited a day, then shor-circuited a multiplier, lit a bit turned a resistor again, switched off, read a reading, switched off, wait a day, etc etc. Long but rather innocent play for youngsters to learn if want to survive, one hand staylessly must hang in the pant pocket not shiver around as humans do normally.
 
Last edited:

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
By the way, with HFBR2524 I with mates made a sputter-type of negative ion beam gun`s "Gunilla" strobed-pulse upgrade, let the ions would be splashed only after laser had been ignited not the all time (actually article in Scientific Instruments Journal will be published very soon, already journal comments was elaborated in, let read it, search for family names Janis Blahins, Dag Hanstorp and some more). Then I got about 10 nsec what for that problem was very well. The problem was that in laser room works 10 nsec sharp pulses of some 50 kV so even the hand watches was nullifying going through the laser room. And I must translate the ignition-on TTL signal toward 40 meter far ion source machine. Mission Impossible if no the fibre.
 

ronsimpson

Joined Oct 7, 2019
3,052
54 views and none comments
I have no need of a "multiple GHz" probe. My fastest scope is only 500mhz.
I have a 40kv scope probe. We used it many times but now days it has no use. CRTs are dead.
I have isolated probes good to 2kv. I only need to isolate the power line.
I have a battery powered isolated scope. It is a little slow but is very useful on power line switchers.
We measure ripple on my 30kv power supplies. I am looking for 60/120hz ripple and 100khz noise from the PWM. There is no need for super high frequency at super high voltage.
1 volt at 500mhz Yes. 100kv at 10gh no.
I an sure there are two people on Earth that need this probe. I have not met either of them.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,315
I have no need of a "multiple GHz" probe. My fastest scope is only 500mhz.
I have a 40kv scope probe. We used it many times but now days it has no use. CRTs are dead.
I have isolated probes good to 2kv. I only need to isolate the power line.
I have a battery powered isolated scope. It is a little slow but is very useful on power line switchers.
We measure ripple on my 30kv power supplies. I am looking for 60/120hz ripple and 100khz noise from the PWM. There is no need for super high frequency at super high voltage.
1 volt at 500mhz Yes. 100kv at 10gh no.
I an sure there are two people on Earth that need this probe. I have not met either of them.
There are plenty of people (guys who work on acceleration type machines) who need this type of high-voltage wide-band probe but few who can justify the money to buy a set with a real calibration cert. I routinely investigate signal problems inside active systems running at 250kv+ above ground potential or a 30kW rf feed for several Mev ion energies. The normal solution is to lug portable test equipment inside for data logging or to disable interlocks, open safety doors and view test equipment screens from some safe distance. We have 500kv voltage dividers useful to about 10MHz that can sometimes be used but they are large, delicate and expensive. A reasonably priced fiber-optic linked probe 'Superprobe' would be a nice addition.
 
Last edited:

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
Ron: The keyword was 16 channels. They in every ocillo have common ground. Thus, for example, with 2 kV probes is impossible to measure without of any isolation transformer just the amperage in high voltage side, whilst voltage in low side and vice versa. With battery device (I am using them everyday) You ought to hang up 16 small DSO~s and then solve a problem how to read em secure not be strucked by levin. How to sinc the begin-points then, to read the time-gaps between those signals? I havent any answer then.
By the way, You may use the Chineese 2 kV 1:100 probes very well for DC, but I have burned at least dozen of those at moderate 500V at 50 MHz. Their input capacitor is just piece of sh**, pardon, having reactive power characteristics far beyound the needed. It warms-up and explodes. Have no knowledge (but at least have illusions) that Rode&Scwartz have a better, but never I had a couple of houses to sell for buy one such probe :)
 

be80be

Joined Jul 5, 2008
2,072
I Just test the power down at safe level but this looks like it could be good I maybe order some part's and have a play with it maybe not ghz but
a set to play with my high voltage stuff sound fun.
 

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
open safety doors and view test equipment screens from some safe distance. We have 500kv
Exactly what I told about my 380 kV youngster experience.

And I am not doubt if really on planet are only 2 man need such superprobe, if I read a hackaday project of 60 MHz such probe (link is bit upper in answer to Kubeek) with hundreds of reads. And then a dozen companies would not produce it for astronomical prices. If it would cost the reasonable price like 100 or even 1000 coins I would buy it without of thinking twice. But 47 000 USD per piece is not reasonable price for two IC~s and 2 LED~s even if it is wrapped in bunch of completely unneeded certificates of conformity.

More, I am deeply sure than every willing to monitor H-bridge in action already had met this problem, how to measure time gaps and voltages/currents splashes in all four branches simultaneously. Four channels are gate voltages V(gs), four channels are V(ds), four are i(d), and two are V(cc) and i(cc) and last are i(loa) and V(loa). More over, at the bigger power where the microprocessor will control all those to make a proper alarm stop-off there cannot be 16 battery driven processors between kilovolts on different grounds or grand divider sensing so small as milivolt peak on the line, what`s voltage is divided by 1000. Its nonsense, none is doing like this.
 

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
I maybe order some part's and have a play with it maybe not ghz but...
Exact!! Yes, the GHz is not the main aim, but something coming out of POSSIBLE component speed and oscillo speed.Mostly nowaday people are working much with 2,4 GHz and are not happy if certain thing is unusable for that. But at least 1 GHz is must to be, as the most of spike-like troubles happen there for large power devices working on 20-50 kHz. Just it irradiates up to 23rd harmonic and where, how and what it are harming we know only after a black hole melted in the pcb. There is the main application of superprobe, and 60 MHz is too small.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,315
even if it is wrapped in bunch of completely unneeded certificates of conformity.
This is where we part company. Those certificates of (safety) conformity are mandatory. I just had an Oregon osha audit. Imagine while being asked questions about high voltage, crush hazards, interlocks, PPE for hazmat materials, radiation protection and even why we still use lead solder :eek: I said we use some random guys high-voltage probes from the X country who didn't actually test to the necessary safety standard.
 

Thread Starter

Janis59

Joined Aug 21, 2017
1,849
RE: nsa: Science in this meaning is happy exclusion. If not, we would sit in the caves and eat the bison meat hunted throwing the stones. Normally scientists have a clue what they do, to differ from lowest level workers.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,315
RE: nsa: Science in this meaning is happy exclusion. If not, we would sit in the caves and eat the bison meat hunted throwing the stones. Normally scientists have a clue what they do, to differ from lowest level workers.
It's been my experience that scientists are the most clueless about basic safety while the lowest level workers are experts in what can kill or mangle them.
https://curiosity.com/topics/anatol...-particle-accelerator-and-survived-curiosity/

See, this is the Large Hadron Collider, the most powerful machine in the world and will blow your head clean off.
clint.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top