I am a volunteer at an aviation museum. I am trying to develop a solid state replacement for a WWII gun turret servo. I am trying to use the existing sensors (selsyns), but replace the servo (tubes and transformers) and motor controller (amplidyne).

The system supply is 115VAC, 400Hz. The selsyns produce 57.5VAC, 400HZ, that varies in amplitude and phase. Amplitude indicates the angular error magnitude, and phase (0 or 180) indicates the error direction. The servo monitored the selsyn output, and generated a +/- voltage difference between the inphase and out of phase sides of the servo amp. This +/- difference fed a bidirectional motor controller.

I figure I can use the same basic approach, with two sides to the solid state servo amp -- an in phase and an out of phase side. So, what I need is a circuit to handle the fixed amplitude 115VAC supply/phase reference, and the 57.5VAC variable amplitude/phase input signal.

I was thinking that some form of FET source follower for each side might be a good start for this. Each side would be supplied by one output from a bridge-like rectifier (half-wave in-phase and out of phase), and the input signal to both sides would be half rectified (half-wave varable amplitude and phase). Each side would then output a voltage proportional to the input signal and its phase (0 or 180). The rectified input signal voltage could be easily reduced using a voltage divider (e.g. 10:1 for 0-6V at the gate).

What do I do about the 115VAC supply voltage? What is a good way to reduce that to something that a simple FET could handle (e.g. 0-16V at the drain)?

What size source resistor is needed? (The voltage difference sensor between the two sides is essentially a high impedance opamp, whose output drives a bidirectional motor controller -- 0 for full reverse, +5 for full forward, and 2.5V for no motion.)

What transistor number should I use? (Precision is not required -- it's just for demonstration, but the environment could have temp extremes, especially on the high side -- closed airplane sitting in the sun.)

Any help would be appreciated.

--jon

 

I miss the point of doing this redesign for a museum project. A re-build/restoration would be more impressive. I hope the original is not destroyed in the process.

As for your design, can you post schematic? It would be very difficult to give advice about individual components without one.

John

 

Servos amps are in short supply, especially ones that are operational. And, they are designed to work with an amplidyne as the motor controller. Amplidynes are even rarer and are hard to maintain. Nothing is being destroyed. The goal is to make the gun turrets on the last flying B29 operational (for demo purposes) by connecting the existing equipment to a solid state replacement for the servo/controller.

As for a schematic, I've pretty much boiled the problem down into inputs and outputs at the optimal points in the original system. What I am mainly after is a magnitude/phase comparator that can handle the high voltages.

Here is a crude schematic of what I had in mind.....

supply: 115VAC RMS @400Hz, 0 degree phase
signal: 0-57.5VAC RMS @ 400 Hz, 0/180 degree phase
output: 0-5VDC

D> is a diode
??? reduces voltage


115VAC
floating
supply
| |
gnd--D>-+ +-<D--gnd
| |
half rect +-<D-+ +-D>-+ half rect
0 phase | | 180 phase
| |
??? ???
| |
half rect +--- | ------------ | ----+
0/180 phase | | | |
| |-+ +-| |
signal --D>--Rg1---+->| |<--+
0-57.5VAC | |-+--- output ---+-|
| | |
Rg2 Rs Rs
| | |
gnd | |
+-------+------+
|
gnd

 

Just fixing your schematic using the CODE blocks

Servos amps are in short supply, especially ones that are operational. And, they are designed to work with an amplidyne as the motor controller. Amplidynes are even rarer and are hard to maintain. Nothing is being destroyed. The goal is to make the gun turrets on the last flying B29 operational (for demo purposes) by connecting the existing equipment to a solid state replacement for the servo/controller.

As for a schematic, I've pretty much boiled the problem down into inputs and outputs at the optimal points in the original system. What I am mainly after is a magnitude/phase comparator that can handle the high voltages.

Here is a crude schematic of what I had in mind.....

supply: 115VAC RMS @400Hz, 0 degree phase
signal: 0-57.5VAC RMS @ 400 Hz, 0/180 degree phase
output: 0-5VDC

D> is a diode
??? reduces voltage

                              115VAC
                             floating
                              supply
                              |    | 
                      gnd--D>-+    +-<D--gnd 
                              |    |
               half rect +-<D-+    +-D>-+ half rect
                0 phase  |              | 180 phase
                         |              |
                        ???            ???
                         |              |
         half rect  +--- | ------------ | ----+
        0/180 phase |    |              |     |
                    |  |-+              +-|   |
 signal --D>--Rg1---+->|                  |<--+
0-57.5VAC           |  |-+--- output ---+-|
                    |    |              |
                   Rg2  Rs             Rs
                    |    |              |
                   gnd   |              | 
                         +-------+------+
                                 |
                                gnd

Is your bird "Fifi" or "Doc"?

 

The plane is Fifi. I am working on this project thrice removed from the folks who operate the plane.

--jon

 

Very cool. I saw Fifi at a fly-in a number of years back. She's a beauty.

Does Fifi have 3-phase 400Hz 115v, or is it simply single phase? (3-phase, 1-phase)

And, she has 28VDC available too, right?

Your 0v-5v signal - how much current will be required from this output?

I'm just trying to get some basics down here; what you have to work with.

 

That is a beautiful airplane. My dad was with the 19th Bombardment Group in Guam (B29's). Years ago, I saw a flight of 3 take off from the Aberdeen, MD military field. I was low-level along I-95 right at the edge of the restricted zone. What impressed me most was their gracefulness. I don't know if it was their last flight, but I consider myself lucky to have seen it.

Sorry, I misunderstood the purpose. I thought it was for a static display in a museum.

John

 

I think you need a Scott-T transformer to isolate and convert the signals first. Then a simple resistor network can reduce the levels to what you want.

Some links about signal conversions and what you might be dealing with:
http://magnecompinc.com/scottt.htm

You might have to register to see these.
http://www.naii.com/secure/files/sy...erID=31616&ipAddress=71.182.67.237&productID=
http://www.naii.com/secure/files/sy...erID=31616&ipAddress=71.182.67.237&productID=
http://www.naii.com/secure/files/sy...erID=31616&ipAddress=71.182.67.237&productID=

http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/50205505838923AN252.pdf

 

The main supply is 28VDC. There is a dynamotor that converts it to 115VAC, 400Hz, single phase. (The only three phase usage I know of is for the Sperry bombsight and autopilot -- but that is a different project.) The motor controller input is low current -- essentially an op amp measuring the voltage difference between the in-phase (0 deg) and out-of-phase (180deg) sides as shown in the schematic.

A transformer could be used but I was hoping that the voltages are low enough to be handled by voltage dividers and FETs. I think a triode would work, but I was hoping for something a bit more modern and easier to prototype.

--jon

 

It's seems to be a fun project. Is the Gun Site on this page?
http://www.glennsmuseum.com/bombsights/bombsights.html

 

The main supply is 28VDC. There is a dynamotor that converts it to 115VAC, 400Hz, single phase. (The only three phase usage I know of is for the Sperry bombsight and autopilot -- but that is a different project.) The motor controller input is low current -- essentially an op amp measuring the voltage difference between the in-phase (0 deg) and out-of-phase (180deg) sides as shown in the schematic.

A transformer could be used but I was hoping that the voltages are low enough to be handled by voltage dividers and FETs. I think a triode would work, but I was hoping for something a bit more modern and easier to prototype.

--jon

I think it finally clicked in my head where you are at in the servo train.

Your signal is the two phase output from the CX servo on the motor shaft that generates the diff signal from the CT servo position vs CX servo position and is then input to the servo amp.

At FIG 1.12a correct?
http://www.ddc-web.com/documents/synhdbk.pdf

If so a simple resistance voltage divider should work to reduce the levels.

 

These are selsyns, which I'm guessing or sort of like higher voltage synchros. I am trying to make this as simple as possible. The selsyns are geared to the sight and the turret (separate on a B29), and produce a single error signal referenced to ground. As I described, the signal varies in magnitude, and in phase, with phase indicating the direction of the error (i.e. positive or negative).

All of this original stuff seems to be reliable and low maintenance. The big problem is taking that signal and feeding it to a modern motoro controller, that wants 0-5VDC, with 2.5VDC being no motion.

Resistor dividers would be OK for the signal, as I have shown because of the FET high input Z, and might be OK for the supply, but I still need a FET or something to do the magnitude/phase comparison (the original circuit did it wioth transformers and tubes in a similar manner). So, since my skills in these areas are limited, I was hoping somebody on the forum could come up with a simple design to deal with the voltage reduction of the supply to the source follower -- I need voltage reduction. not gain, and virtually no power. I also need a value for the source resistor -- I googled a bit, there is lots of theaory, but little in the way of cookbook stuff (which is my level).

 

I took a closer look at the fig and text. This is the correct location in the servo loop. The big difference I see is that my error signal varies in magnitude and phase, not magnitude and sign. This is why what I need is more of a phase comparator -- compare the signal phase (0 or 180, it is not continuously variable) with the reference phase, provided by the supply.

 

I used to maintain the Fire Control Data Converter on my cruiser. It went between the digital computers and the analog fire control computers (missile and gunfire) . That stuff used all 3 phase 400 Hz synchros.

There are a number of Synchro to Digital converters - http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-...ver-to-digital-converters/products/index.html

And some that go the other way - http://www.computerconversions.com/html/synchroamp.html

Might those be helpful?

 

The pedestal sight and the computer are on that sight.

For more detail check out http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm. This is the testbed that I have been using. Note: For this project the computer is not in the servo loop (i.e. for demo only, not for accurate target tracking).

 

I used to maintain the Fire Control Data Converter on my cruiser. It went between the digital computers and the analog fire control computers (missile and gunfire) . That stuff used all 3 phase 400 Hz synchros.

There are a number of Synchro to Digital converters - http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-...ver-to-digital-converters/products/index.html

And some that go the other way - http://www.computerconversions.com/html/synchroamp.html

Might those be helpful?

Thanks, but what you are referring to is the next generation or two. Selsyns are high voltage, synchros are low voltage (from what I understand).

 

I took a closer look at the fig and text. This is the correct location in the servo loop. The big difference I see is that my error signal varies in magnitude and phase, not magnitude and sign. This is why what I need is more of a phase comparator -- compare the signal phase (0 or 180, it is not continuously variable) with the reference phase, provided by the supply.

What you are looking for is a servo demodulator.

Old school design. You could feed the output into a "Differential Amplifier" to generate your drive signal.

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book15/62f.htm

400hz transformers
http://www.hammondmfg.com/226.htm

Like "beenthere" I was also on a ship (LPH-3) but in the radio and radar dept when lots of things ran on tubes and servos.

On this link the tubes in the circuit are part of the servo demod/phase detector with the relay coils contacts acting as a H-bridge. Sweet!

 

Selsyns are high voltage, synchros are low voltage

Most ran at 120 VAC.

 

Most ran at 120 VAC.

....then I guess they were selsyns, not synchos.

The diagram by nsaspook pretty much sums it up. In this case I want to use a SS motor controller.

So, any ideas on a circuit that will do it with a FET instead of a triode, and with no transformers? I think mine is close, but I'm not good enough at circuits to solve for the values or to come up with the correct voltage reducer for the "???" location in my schematic.

 

I have some stirring that the devices are one in the same. Selsyn is a contraction of "self-synchronous" motor. The functions are identical except for scale.

Yes, from our Ebook - http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/11.html