Why have all this equipment If It cannot be used.
Annouce that an area Is going to be taken over.
Ask people to leave for safety,then use Military
Might. Save our soldiers lives. Your opinion.

 

Actually the US is pretty good about not banning weapons that we feel we need. Some complaints are reasonable, but can be addressed though other means. Land mines for example, the current generation (last I heard) have a limited lifespan, something like 5 years and it goes inert.

The current fad is cluster munitions. I'm hearing on the radio how it is the current weapon being chosen for international disapproval. Sometimes it is the right move, but I get the feeling there is an element of trying to tie peoples hands behind their back. What chemical and nuclear weapons do is no joke, there is a good reason they aren't used.

War is bad enough that if it is the only option you can't ban everything though. It is a lot more merciful to get it over quickly, to the looser as well as the winner. Might as well as try to ban war while your about it, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I'm not getting my point across,you hear a reporter
I'mbedded with a unit say we are loading up to go out
on mission.We leave base camp and look out I.E.D.S.
on our way to search for and clear the ememy. At the
end of the day they return to base camp.If they are lucky
every one returns alive. The next day they head out for another
mission,maybe to a village where they sort thru the population.
Not knowing If some one will blow up all of them. Why not hold the
area overnite,use night vison for people trying to attack the ground
that you have taken,dig In and hold the ground you have taken.
the travel back and forth Is where most troops lose there limbs.
I,m not talking about nuclear. I,m talking about not going to home base
every nite,they have to move around to hid the L.E.D.S.,take rolling
mission to them for two or three days,help me with this,how would you slow them down.

 

You are forgetting something Loosewire. We are not at war with the Afghanis. We are at war with terrorists IN Afghanistan. So we cant treat the locals like the enemy...or THEY WILL BECOME the enemy.

Of course it would be safer for us to stop everyone at gunpoint 50ft away and make them strip to see if they have a bomb strapped on, but we cant. The average person there is not the enemy. We have to get them on our side.

Intelligence is the name of the game.

If we can become friends with the average Afghani, they will report when people are doing "bad". That way we can stop it before it starts.

 

If they were sent out on a 2 - 3 day mission, they would have to bring a lot more equipment. More water, food, ammunition, maintenance equipment, and so on. Even just for an overnighter, they need to pack lots of more stuff. And the mental pressure on the soldiers would be even bigger. Considering that they need to have one or two soldiers awake at all times, to guard the sleeping.

 

Also Afghanistan is a very rocky country. It is often not possible to dig in. And even if you are able to dig in. You will be a target easy to hit and knock out. So the best thing is to move around all the time. Then it come to using night vision. You will be able to see in the dark. but you will also lose much of your depth vision. I have tried night vision during military training. Since you have poor depth vision, you will move around in a quite clumsy manner, and it is easy to stumble if you move fast.

 

You are forgetting something Loosewire. We are not at war with the Afghanis. We are at war with terrorists IN Afghanistan. So we cant treat the locals like the enemy...or THEY WILL BECOME the enemy.

One might conceive of a country with a disruptive element in it that had overpowered the legitimate government and wishes of the people. That government might need our help to get rid of the disruptive element. Off hand, I can't think of any example that meets that situation. If you think of Cuba, for example, that was a revolution in which the masses of the people seemed to side with the insurgents.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan, the problem is quite a bit different than the hypothetical above. The governments are corrupt and are in cahoots with the bad guys. Money and materiel we send for support are being funneled by the governments to the bad guys. The people depend on the bad guys for their economy. Religious and tribal allegiances are hugely important. It is not a revolution we are trying to quell, but the status quo that we want to change. Most important, it is unclear whether the people want the change.

Your enemy's friend is your enemy too. The governments, Taliban, and other people who befriend terrorists are our enemies too. Once the US is gone from Iraq, it will revert back to a dictatorial theocracy. It already shows sure signs of going that way. Pakistan and Afghanistan will be the same. The current theory of nation building just doesn't work. That has been proved over and over in the latter part of the 20th century to today.

Japan and Germany were total destroyed before they were rebuilt.

So, we know what works. We know what doesn't work. Why do we keep trying to do what doesn't work?

John

 

The night vision stuff is getting better, much better, as well as cheaper. Enough so that the governments won't be able to use it as an advantage much longer.

I'm one of the weirdos that thought the USA should have declared the war on Al-Qaeda, its spinoffs, and the Taliban instead of the liberty consuming War on Terror (a war that can never end). Of course that would have left Iraq out of the picture.

Sorry if I pushed a hot button topic.

 

I'm one of the weirdos that thought the USA should have declared the war on Al-Qaeda, its spinoffs, and the Taliban instead of the liberty consuming War on Terror (a war that can never end). Of course that would have left Iraq out of the picture.

It's good to know that I'm not alone.

 

If Its a War that not going to ever end,take the word terror
out of our every day langage.All countries have diverse population.
With the the new forenics,If a group makes a move you can trace
where It came from. Like a famous guy said we can absorbe small
attacked like the Texas army base,the city police caught the bad
guy thru 911 call on a Miltary base. Manufactors built In minute
Id things to trace products.A combination of cell phone towers,cameras
mobile radiation devies. Its almost Impossible to drive In a county
without getting photoed on a camera. So why go to the desert to
fight. We will always have home grown guys,It like bookie crime been
around forever,your bookie a nice guy. Follow the money the best clue
ever described. Other than than freedom our of expression who wanted the
U.S. Its cheap and expenstive to live. The global Insurance companies
have the money,who have to have there Insurance to play the game.
Rent or buy there fee Is built In or to drive Every country that has bikes
can't wait to get a car. Your Internet carrier pays Insurance to keep the lines
In working order.Don't forget about google earth,they p.u. a lot vibes,can they see thru
your roof when needed under contract.Why N.Y. ,the net works have there
video cameras pointed at Times Square 24/7.

 

Don't forget about google earth,they p.u. a lot vibes,can they see thru
your roof when needed under contract.

Uhhh, no. You need to add a bit of true physics instead of paranoia to flavor that.

What google did with streetview was to cruise around and listen in with equipment that is more or less off the shelf. Unlike your typical crook, they confessed and amended their actions, but anyone dumb enough to leave their wifi open is asking for trouble. Simple encryption is a large electronic keep out sign.

RFID is fairly high tech, a chip harvests radio waves and retransmits information. It doesn't work without the energy input. Your movements can be tracked, but this is done by virtue of walking next to RFID receiver stations set up in a physical location. It is not something that can be done in your home, unless that large white van is parked out there.

The FBI casually planting GPS trackers on people is of some concern to me, but it requires an agent going to your car and doing the deed.

People don't help their case by using phones that automatically do this, especially when our oh so ethical providers are quite willing to sell them out. A high tech phone is not truly under its owners control.

There are acts our government can perform when at war that are simply not legal during periods of peace. This is a given. We are at War, whether by my definition or George Bushes, it is in effect. My problem is how to declare when it is over. Given the loose definition our airheads at Congress put on it (not that it matters, but this was during the republican majority) it will never end. I suspect the slightly different set of airheads of the Democratic party would have done the same thing, this is a bipartisan screw up.

Long term, I see bad times ahead, both economically and civil liberties.

One common theme I keep seeing is how few politicians who claim they want to return the constitution to it's roots don't even understand what the 1st amendment really says. It isn't only about freedom of speech, there is more in that amendment that is conveniently ignored by a lot of the future McCarthy's out there.

 

I agree on the concerns. Grew up in LA in the early 50's and remember the House Committee on Un-American Activities. The LA Times went into a frenzy about anyone who even was called to testify. That is, the people were virtually convicted of being Commie's just because they were subpoenaed to testify. I went to school with Japanese children who had been in American concentration camps. It can and has happened here already.

Anyone hear of Fusion Centers? What do they do? Residential Detainment Centers? Anyone listen to Governor Ventura's (Minnesota) theories?

John

 

You volunteer your self with every gadget you have .
The more things you buy,the more you help.The good
part If there Is such a thing Is that devises are purchased
all the world over. That makes every thing interconnected and
with space gps,one big gum ball or all day jawbreaker.
Google and Gov could be hand In hand who knows.
Those special schools,the students can be tracted for life.

 

What special schools? I don't believe any such thing exists, but if they do I'd like to know about them.

A tracker you each is straight out of 007, and we know how accurate Hollywood is. A GPS system can be made small, but not that small. It is a radio receiver (several of them actually) with precision timekeeping equipment and fairly advanced computational ability. To make it a tracker it is also a fairly powerful transmitter. Add all of this together and you need a battery. There are energy extending methods such as burst transition, but that transmitter is still a killer.

RFID is incredibly small, but it requires a receiver station. In the case of pets (and proposed for children, which I disagree with) it is read by veterinarians. They use a separate data base to get information from it, it only records something that is very much like a serial number.

Car tags are a good example of RFID. You drive in a carefully controlled lane and the receiver station reads it as you cruise by at speed. It isn't 100% accurate, but close enough. State governments can still use this against you, in the form of speeding tickets by calculating the speed you had to drive from point A to point B.

The real problem is not technology, it is people willing to give up their rights in the name of safety. This is not a partisan issue, this is an awareness issue.

 

The real problem is not technology, it is people willing to give up their rights in the name of safety. This is not a partisan issue, this is an awareness issue.

Agreed.

Then there is this, which seems to be the goal, instead of the warning:

Congressional Record–Appendix, pp. A34-A35
January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963
Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.
At Mrs. Nordman’s request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following “Current Communist Goals,” which she identifies as an excerpt from “The Naked Communist,” by Cleon Skousen:
[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war. [What was Obama just in Russia talking about?]
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war. [same]
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength. [same]
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war. [No Ko, China, Iran, Cuba]
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites. [Done]
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination. [same]
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N. [same]
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N. [had been done but Germany fooled 'em]
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress. [done]
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N. [done]
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.) [done]
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.[done]
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.[done - pledge of allegiance?]
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office. [done]
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States. [done]
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights. [done]
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks. [done]
18. Gain control of all student newspapers. [done]
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack. [done]
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions. [done]
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures. [done]
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.” [done]
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.” [done - certainly can't have anything patriotic - must be crucifixes in pee or something]
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press. [done]
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV. [done]
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.” [done]
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.” [done]
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.” [done]
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis. [done]
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.” [done]
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over. [done - in high school and college - I wasn't taught pre czar era much]
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc. [done]
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus. [done]
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities. [done]
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI. [not done]
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions. [done]
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business. [working]
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat]. [done]
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals. [done]
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce. [done]
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents. [done]
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems. [done]
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government. [done]
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal. [done]
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

From here, the list is in many places on the net, though

 

This wouldn't fit into post above for some reason, it is the last part of the quote from the site above.

10 Conditions For Transition To Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equal distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.[7

 

Do they have a forum dedicated to "Off-Topic" relevance? If they don't, someone needs to establish one.

 

Do they have a forum dedicated to "Off-Topic" relevance? If they don't, someone needs to establish one.

I thought the posts didn't need to match the topic title, hence the name.

 

No political parties have ever been banned in the UK, but it is being worked on now I guess; The British Communist Party was still alive in the McCarthy era and still is today. They are no longer financed by the USSR to destroy the British economy, but by the British taxpayer. Many of the politicians in the parties are “ex “Communist Party card holders who signed up after Stalin, Hungary and Czechoslovakia. There is an organisation financed by the EU, and headed by a card holder to select the “right sort of people” to fill the top jobs in this country. These people are running their own brand of McCarthyism; I could give names.

 

So we need to ban communism to protect the constitution, thus destroying that which you wanted to protect? I thought allowing people to have their own beliefs was pretty central, and also being allowed to vote on those beliefs?

I'm not for communism, but the above is an example why I dislike the current tea party so much. Many of the constituents have argued against the 1st amendment due to lack of understanding. Many of them will refer to this as a Christian nation. We're not, we're just mostly Christians. Subtle difference, but extremely significant.

Many people want to return to the Constitution favored by our founding fathers. Does this included slavery and sufferance too? Perhaps they want to pick and choose what they get? Much like what they accuse the other side (whoever they are) of doing?

My real problem with the current political climate is the lack of acknowledgment of the loyal opposition, which is IMO the reason of the lack of basic courtesy. They (as told by the other side) have an agenda, a conspiracy, and want to destroy the United States. There isn't even the possibility considered that you are wrong, or they are simply wrong and want the best for the country just as you do. Different visions doesn't necessarily mean different goals. Instead (as told by Glenn Beck) there is a vast conspiracy of socialists (the new communists) who want to sell the Unitied States out. Never mind people voted their representatives in (while not elected, Obama did get the popular vote, something that is conveniently ignored by those against him). When anyone who disagrees with you is the enemy (and therefore has the worst possible motives attributed to them) this country has major issues, of the type that can end it.

About the left wing side of American politics, the worst of the folks are fairly unpleasant in and of themselves. There seems to be a core belief that they are simply misunderstood, and if they had their way it would all be good. Like the persistent HHO crowd, they can't wrap their heads around you can't get something for nothing.

While I'm being blunt the real problem we face is corporations and banks, especially multinationals. They have no loyalty nor morals. They want only what affects their bottom line, damn the United States of America or anyone else. Government is about the only organization that can successfully fight some of their more egregious abuses, but instead is representing them to the detriment of citizens. Some of the stuff is buyer beware, but how about the things they dish out and we have no options on? Free market philosophy is not going to work for these problems, unlike what is spouted by the more rabid right wing types.

The subject of this thread is War Games,How Would You protect Your men If Your Hands Were Not tied by Politics. If we are talking War, it is the governments job to protect our solders from the UN, which is extremely political to extremes, and give them the tools an backing to do their unpleasant job. It you are talking domestic, the government needs to be controlled. So do corporations. The folks in the middle (most of the American public) understand this.