Urgent-circuitmaker

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by atlas, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    hi guys,

    I just have a little problem that i hope u guys can help me with it... I'm just simulating a simple circuit which consist of battery and one resistor. I'm asked to measure the voltage and current for different values of resistor, and plot the the graph of Voltage versus current measurements...

    What i'm doing right now is that i can display the voltage and current measuremens of different values of resistor at one shot , but i dont know how to plot these measurements using circuitmaker,and because of that i have to record these measurements and use Excel to plot them.. Is there a possible way to plot these measurements from circuitmaker instead of recording in Excel and plottting them from there, as i have to try different values of resistor in order to match some curve regarding my project

    Thanks a lot for your support and help guys......
     
  2. n9352527

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 14, 2005
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    Change the resistor value to param and then sweep the param between the minimum and maximum resistances required. See CM help for further details.
     
  3. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    I really cannt get what you mean bro..Can you please elaborate further on this as I really need to know how to plot these values in a faster way instead of recording these to an Excel file and plot them there.. Thanks a lot for your support.....
     
  4. JoeJester

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 26, 2005
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    Atlas,

    Attached is my understanding of what you want to do.



    I'm using TINA, but I'm sure circuit maker will have some similarities.

    On the resistor, I had it step values from 1k to 10k in 10 steps. On the input voltage, I swept from 0 volts to 10 volts.

    Look in your help file about stepping components and sweeping the DC.
     
  5. rukrazy?

    Member

    Mar 5, 2005
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  6. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    Thanks a lot for your reply..

    It's my mistake that i got you confused.. sorry about it... Just have a look at the attachment and you'll know what I mean.. Thanks a lot for your reply...
     
  7. pebe

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 11, 2004
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    How does the circuit work? Q2 appears to be biased off.
     
  8. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    This a fuel cell model circuit which shows the electrical characteristics (V-I) curve of it.. When the current through R2 exceeds certain limit Q2 starts to conduct and reduce the base voltage of Q1.. As a result of that the emitter voltage of Q1 decrese at exponential rate... every compnent on the circuit plays a role in determing the (V-I) curve of fuel cell .....


    This is my final year project which is about fuel cell ....I hope you can help me with what I asked for guys....
     
  9. pebe

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 11, 2004
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    As I see the circuit, Q1 is biased on by R1 and so (ignoring Q2 for the moment) current will flow through L1, R2, D1 and RL.

    That will result in the base of Q2 being about 0.7v more negative than its emitter, so it will be cut off. Increasing the current through R2 cannot change that situation.

    Am I missing something?
     
  10. n9352527

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 14, 2005
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    As I said before, you need to sweep the RL value. All varieties of SPICEs out there offer this facility. There are time sweep (transient), DC sweep (voltage), AC sweep (frequency) and parameter sweep (any parameter of your choosing).

    You need to change the calue of RL to a parameter and sweep the parameter. Although all of SPICEs offer this feature, not all of them are similar in their interfaces. So to find out how to sweepthe parameter value on CircuitMaker, you need to read the manual.

    If you set the sweep correctly, then you could simulate and plot any circuit values (currents or voltages) against the sweep parameter (which is RL).

    Please read the manual first.
     
  11. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    Firsltly, i suggest you should read about Fuel cell techonolgy before trying to understand how the circuit operates.. In brief, fuel cell is a new promising techonolgy that can be used instead of oil,coal, or any other renewable energy resources like solar cell,wind power,water power,and so on.. It's a major focus of reserach nowdays due to its high efficeny (up to 80%), of course with minimum environmental impacts.. There's a lot of material on the net about this techonogy, just check it out, it's interesting... The attachment shows a published paper of PEM ( one of fuel cell types) electronic model circuit.. This model was developed and proposed in 2004 under the Science Direct section which is something like IEEE Transaction of publish papers but it's regarded as a second level.. Anyway, I hope you enjoy reading that...


    Secondly, what I can do now is to sweep the parameter of RL to get different voltage and current values but I dont know how to plot the voltage values against the current values of the RL parameter.. I read the user mannual, but i found nothing.... I really need help on this as i've been tryin to work out this problem for the past three weeks without any progress.. Thanks a lot guys for your replies...
     
  12. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    Look at chapter six of your manual, at least the one on the link above.

    It illustrates how to do a parameter sweep.
     
  13. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    Atlas,

    You need to review your circuit. It's not the same as the one illustrated in figure 2 of the document you provided on fuel cells.

    You need to lighten up on the accusations since you provided an incorrect drawing.
     
  14. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    I know how to sweep parameters , but what I do not know is how to plot the voltage of the swept parameter and the current of the swept parameter as well....... The mannual only shows how to sweep a parameter and plot the voltage or the current of it versus independent power source (like fixed voltage source and so on) using DC sweep option which I dont want ........As I said i need to plot the voltage values versus the current values of that swept parameter (RL), instead of recording these values on an Excel sheet and plot them there, because it's time consuming as I need to match my curve with experimental (V-I curve) of real fuel cell device...


    If you're talking about the transistor Q2, whether you use NPN or PNP, it's the same thing as no effect on the output result... You can try this if you want plus I'm only simulating the steady-state reponse, not the dynamic response..... This circuit already has been checked by my supervisor...
     
  15. pebe

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 11, 2004
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    I don't need to know about fuel cells to know that the circuit you gave will not work. It now appears that Q2 was shown with emitter and collector reversed.

    Your later claim that it makes no difference whether Q2 is PNP or NPN, is also incorrect.
     
  16. atlas

    Thread Starter Member

    Jul 18, 2006
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    when I told you to read about fuel cell is to understand what the circuit is all about.. every component of that circuit represents a loss of fuel cell. Whether Q2 is reversed or not , it doesnt make a difference from the simulation as the output is the same no matter whether you reverse it or remove it.... You can simualte the circuit yourself if you want to.... That's what I found from my simulation using ideal transistors... I'm sure building this circuit is another matter.... I didnt calim anything , what I said was what I got from the simulation and analyzing my data and all my data look similar to the experimental data... I dont want to accuse anyone here, I didnt develop this circuit , I just adopted it to match my simulation result with experimental result, and that's it..........One more thing is that you didnt tell me anything about what I asked for ... It seemed you just started critisizing the circuit in a harsh way... Just relax, this is all about discussion, we're not playin defensive mechanism here... Tc bro...............
     
  17. JoeJester

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    Find out about exporting your data to csv or directly to excel ... or just start entering it in, it would have been completed by now.
     
  18. JoeJester

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    You've piqued my interest with your circuit. At what load current did you get Q2 to conduct?
     
  19. n9352527

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    Oct 14, 2005
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    Well, if the manual doesn't say how to do it, then tough. You probably should change your SPICE to a better one. There are a few that are free if cost is your main concern.

    Manually exporting the data might not be an option if you need to do multiple runs repeatedly with different parameters. However, if you only need a few runs, then just process the data manually. It's faster than spending 3 weeks finding out how to do things that should've have been in the manual in the first place.

    How about contacting the CM vendor and ask them how to do that? This is surely the easiest solution. You have nothing to loose...
     
  20. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    According to the website ...
     
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