Transformer Communication

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by cgha20@yahoo.com, May 7, 2016.

  1. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    So I have two 1:1 transformers with 30 turns at primary and secondary. I would like to couple an ac signal to Transformer 1 (by switching a 5V line) and have the secondary to add this signal to a 20VDC battery line. Then I want the second transformer to connect to this dc battery down the line to receive this signal and remove the dc and just accept the ac so I can demodulate and use as data. How do I do this? I need help
     
  2. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
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    How much DC current is flowing through the line?
     
  3. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
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    At the receiving end, it could be as simple as using a capacitor to couple the AC out of the signal and block all the DC. Or use a transformer that draws little DC current but still extracts the AC signal. It's hard to say much more without more details.
     
  4. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    I guesstimate 2 amps
     
  5. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
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    You could AC couple the signal from the transformer into and out the line with DC blocking caps at the outputs, as wayneh noted.
    For that to work you would need AC blocking inductors (chokes) at the output of the supply and the input to the load, so the AC is not absorbed by the low impedance of the battery and load filter caps.

    You could also put the transformer outputs in series with the line, but then the transformers would have to handle the 2A DC load current without saturating, which would generally require a large (perhaps gapped) transformer.
     
  6. nsaspook

    AAC Fanatic!

    Aug 27, 2009
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    How long is the line? It would seem to be simpler just to add a separate circuit for the AC signal if it's physically and electrically possible.
     
  7. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    crutshow would you please briefly sketching what you mean. THansk
     
  8. crutschow

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    Mar 14, 2008
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    Here's the concept using inductors and capacitors for the coupling.
    The value of the inductors and capacitors depend upon the signal frequency.
    Note that, with this scheme you don't really need the transformers.

    upload_2016-5-9_8-5-0.png
     
  9. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Is this what you expect to see. Maybe you can help me decipher what I am seeing.
     
  10. crutschow

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    Mar 14, 2008
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    You are seeing the resonant ringing of the capacitance with the inductance at around 5MHz
    You need a much larger inductance to move it to a lower frequency so it isn't a problem.
    What is the signal frequency range you need?
    Is the frequency or signal modulated?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  11. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    2 frequencies, a zero represented by 100khz and 1 by 400khz. I plan to use transistor as switch as input to T1. More inductance on inductors on 24v line or transformer?
     
  12. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
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    Inductor's inductance.

    Here's an LTspice simulation of some values that see to work fairly well.
    I didn't include the transformer since I didn't know it's properties and if it's properly specified it should not have a significant effect the circuit operation.
    The diode on the output is for DC restore of the signal through the capacitors so that the negative side of the pulse is near 0V.
    I added a filter capacitance on the output since most loads have such a capacitor.

    upload_2016-5-10_1-38-38.png
     
  13. MrAl

    Well-Known Member

    Jun 17, 2014
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    Hello there,

    Usually when this kind of thing is done the injection signal used is small so it doesnt bother the normal operation anyway. At the receiving end it's almost the same as a radio receiver with input amplifier and demodulator.
    Although AM is easier, for best signal reproduction use FM as normal load transients can generate signals that look like AM too. For binary systems the bit time has to be long enough also, and error correction methods are desirable (Hamming, etc). Redundancy when possible. Depending on the importance of the signal, a duplex system might be needed with acknowledgement of the received signal.
     
  14. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Thanks alot! I went ahead and added the two transformers and looks good. Running to store over lunch to buy parts and test it out! How much smaller than DC should the ac be? should i step down further at T1 and step up at t2? Line length can be max of 30-40 ft. Would this design still apply?
     
  15. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
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    As long as the signal is isolated from the supply and load with the inductors, then I don't see that signal amplitude will have any effect on the circuit (unless the powered load is sensitive to the signal frequencies).
    You can make the signal as large as you need to get good signal to noise ratio.
    I don't see 30-40 ft as a particular problem as long as the return (common or ground) line is part of the same cable
     
  16. MrAl

    Well-Known Member

    Jun 17, 2014
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    That's cute :)

    National Semi back in the 1980's published a schematic for a power line transmission circuit, which sends signals over the 50 or 60Hz power line. It's still around on the web somewhere i think.
     
  17. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    so it looks like 100mH inductor is hard to find at required current and size limitations. Any ideas. I reran simulation with 100uH and signal looks way different. More like sign wave.
     
  18. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
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    Of course it looks different with an inductor that's a thousand times smaller. :rolleyes:
    So how large an inductor can you find that meets your current and size requirements ?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  19. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    I would say something that can handle 4A, and inductor will be on a 1.2" width board by 8 inches, with 1/3 inch max length of space availability
     
  20. cgha20@yahoo.com

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 21, 2009
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    values for characteristics i need is under 100uH
     
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