The following questions are all related to a hall effect sensor and comparator circuit that I'm working on as part of a new machine interface. Some previous questions of mine were dealt with in this thread:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=100400
The issues I'm dealing with now appear to be voltage spikes related to solenoid coils and motor windings. The machine that this new circuit is being added to has a 240VAC power system and a power board/CPU with built in power supply that runs internally on 5VDC, along with various low voltage I/O pieces (if all goes well, my new circuit would be one of those inputs.) The high and low voltage systems share a common ground, which is tied to the chassis. In theory, the 240VAC solenoids and motors seem like they should be fairly well isolated from the low voltage stuff, but we see evidence of spikes quite often when motors or valves turn on (interestingly, it is when they turn ON, not OFF - I've already learned some ways to deal with field-collapse induced spikes, but don't know what would be happening when these devices are first energized.) Here is a rough diagram of the related components of the regular machine:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B21hjJ3dWyi7Q0lKcnhRbEVPT1U/edit?usp=sharing (block diagram of relevant machine parts)
The existing machine, prior to the addition of my prototype circuits, works just fine, but if you watch closely, you can see tiny blinks on the 5VDC indicator lights for all of our switching circuits (the light should be on only when the switched 5VDC signal for activating solenoids is present) when motors, or sometimes solenoid coils, are engaged. After adding my new circuit, we found that it occasionally returns a false trigger signal when a motor is turned on. I've played with changing capacitor values and improved immunity to this noise, but it's all just trial and error - I have no idea how to calculate what I really need. Here's the base version of the new circuit:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B21hjJ3dWyi7dVVJcy02LXNJOHM/edit?usp=sharing (hall effect/comparator circuit)
I imagine an oscilloscope (and the knowledge to properly use it) would help a lot with understanding the nature of these spikes, but I'm out of luck there. I've tried using a DMM to watch for voltage variations on the +5 or ground lines, and also tried setting up an Arduino as a high-sample-rate voltage meter with min/max/avg tracking for the same purpose, but had no luck with either.
So the main questions are:
1) Is there a good way to determine why motors and coils are adding so much noise to low-votage circuits that are meant to be isolated?
2) What, if anything, can be done to reduce this noise?
3) If the noise can't be reduced enough, how can I determine the best noise filtering to add to my new circuit to make it more immune?
The circuit as drawn above is using a cap to protect the comparator IC exactly as directed in the comparator documentation, but it doesn't seem to provide enough protection. Just experimenting, I added another cap of the same value across the +5VDC and ground inputs to the circuit. Even with that, the LEDs I have on the outputs flicker a tiny bit sometimes, but the signal is weak or short enough that it doesn't seem to trigger the input on the CPU that the output is connected to. It feels like I could just keep adding more/higher value capacitors until I see no flicker and then test that everything else still works as intended, but I'd rather know what I'm doing!
Do I need to better understand the nature of the noise/spike before figuring out how to fight it, or are there generic/universal solutions beyond what my comparator spec sheet called for?
Also, is it likely that the spikes are induced voltage on the ground side (as opposed to the +5 side) and, if so, would different grounding schemes help us out? Should the 5V system just have + and - sides, with no connection to earth ground? Or, could it be that we just need each component to have a unique path all the way to the best quality ground point (where the power cord enters the machine) instead of each component just tying into ground wires and/or the grounded chassis wherever it's convenient.
I'm really sorry this is so long winded - I was just trying to explain everything I've got to go on so far. I have so much to learn in the realm of electronics, but I really want to get this thing right!
Thanks in advance!
-Eric
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=100400
The issues I'm dealing with now appear to be voltage spikes related to solenoid coils and motor windings. The machine that this new circuit is being added to has a 240VAC power system and a power board/CPU with built in power supply that runs internally on 5VDC, along with various low voltage I/O pieces (if all goes well, my new circuit would be one of those inputs.) The high and low voltage systems share a common ground, which is tied to the chassis. In theory, the 240VAC solenoids and motors seem like they should be fairly well isolated from the low voltage stuff, but we see evidence of spikes quite often when motors or valves turn on (interestingly, it is when they turn ON, not OFF - I've already learned some ways to deal with field-collapse induced spikes, but don't know what would be happening when these devices are first energized.) Here is a rough diagram of the related components of the regular machine:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B21hjJ3dWyi7Q0lKcnhRbEVPT1U/edit?usp=sharing (block diagram of relevant machine parts)
The existing machine, prior to the addition of my prototype circuits, works just fine, but if you watch closely, you can see tiny blinks on the 5VDC indicator lights for all of our switching circuits (the light should be on only when the switched 5VDC signal for activating solenoids is present) when motors, or sometimes solenoid coils, are engaged. After adding my new circuit, we found that it occasionally returns a false trigger signal when a motor is turned on. I've played with changing capacitor values and improved immunity to this noise, but it's all just trial and error - I have no idea how to calculate what I really need. Here's the base version of the new circuit:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B21hjJ3dWyi7dVVJcy02LXNJOHM/edit?usp=sharing (hall effect/comparator circuit)
I imagine an oscilloscope (and the knowledge to properly use it) would help a lot with understanding the nature of these spikes, but I'm out of luck there. I've tried using a DMM to watch for voltage variations on the +5 or ground lines, and also tried setting up an Arduino as a high-sample-rate voltage meter with min/max/avg tracking for the same purpose, but had no luck with either.
So the main questions are:
1) Is there a good way to determine why motors and coils are adding so much noise to low-votage circuits that are meant to be isolated?
2) What, if anything, can be done to reduce this noise?
3) If the noise can't be reduced enough, how can I determine the best noise filtering to add to my new circuit to make it more immune?
The circuit as drawn above is using a cap to protect the comparator IC exactly as directed in the comparator documentation, but it doesn't seem to provide enough protection. Just experimenting, I added another cap of the same value across the +5VDC and ground inputs to the circuit. Even with that, the LEDs I have on the outputs flicker a tiny bit sometimes, but the signal is weak or short enough that it doesn't seem to trigger the input on the CPU that the output is connected to. It feels like I could just keep adding more/higher value capacitors until I see no flicker and then test that everything else still works as intended, but I'd rather know what I'm doing!
Do I need to better understand the nature of the noise/spike before figuring out how to fight it, or are there generic/universal solutions beyond what my comparator spec sheet called for?
Also, is it likely that the spikes are induced voltage on the ground side (as opposed to the +5 side) and, if so, would different grounding schemes help us out? Should the 5V system just have + and - sides, with no connection to earth ground? Or, could it be that we just need each component to have a unique path all the way to the best quality ground point (where the power cord enters the machine) instead of each component just tying into ground wires and/or the grounded chassis wherever it's convenient.
I'm really sorry this is so long winded - I was just trying to explain everything I've got to go on so far. I have so much to learn in the realm of electronics, but I really want to get this thing right!
Thanks in advance!
-Eric