# Time/ Space: from Hawking back to Einstein / Minkowski.

Discussion in 'Physics' started by socratus, Jun 25, 2015.

1. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
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3
Time/ Space: from Hawking back to Einstein / Minkowski.
==…
a)Stephen Hawking, book: "The theory of everything. Fifthlecture."
" . . . . the universe must have a beginning, and that this beginning
must be described in terms of quantum theory."
"When one goes back to the real time in which we live, however,
there will still appear to be singularities. The poor astronaut who falls
into a black hole . . . . could live in imaginary time, that he would
encounter no singularities."
"This might suggest that the so-called imaginary time is really the
fundamental time,
and that we call real time is something we create
just in our minds. In real time, the universe has a beginning and
an end at singularities that form a boundary to space-time and at which
the laws of science break down. But in imaginary time, there are
no singularities or boundaries. So maybe what we call imaginary time
is really more basic,
and what we call real time is justan idea that we
invent to help us describe what we think the universe is like."
/ page 91/
So.
The real time in which we live has singularities.
But imaginary time without singularities or boundaries " is really the
fundamental time", " is really more basic. "

b)Einstein /Minkowski.
It was Einstein who first in 1905 introduced imaginary time in SRT.
In 1908 Minkowski changed imaginary time into 4D and said:
“ Henceforth, space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away
into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two
will preserve an independent reality.”
So.
" space by itself, and time by itself"the real space andtime in which
we liveare "shadows" . . . ." and only a kind of union of the two
( on the basis ofimaginary time)will preserve an independent reality.” ==..
My solution.
An imaginary time means Eternal Time.
The black hole is eternal zero vacuum (T=0K) continuum.
The 4D is eternal zero vacuum (T=0K) continuum.
Space by itself (gravity-space)and Time (gravity-time) by itself
are secondary: made out from the eternal zero vacuum (T=0K)
through singularity / vacuum fluctuation-transformation.
===…
Best wishes.
==,

supergravity likes this.
2. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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I'm a believer in Hammer-Time.

3. ### MrAl Distinguished Member

Jun 17, 2014
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515
Hi,

I have thought about these things for years time and again, and discussed with people about the possibilities. The possibilities could be endless for example because there could be more than one solution even though we'd like to think everything is simple such that we can one day understand everything, and i say possibilities because that is all that they are. Whenever a new idea comes about it has to be proven or else it is just another fantasy. It is fun to dream sometimes though.

4. ### BR-549 Well-Known Member

Sep 22, 2013
2,168
416
Or, there is only one possibility and no others.

This possibility manifests itself as reality.

This reality follows simple rules.

There is no randomness or probability.

Reality has to obey law, it has no choice or other option.

Reality can only exist in this fashion.

There is only one solution.

tate webe likes this.
5. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,772
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Quantum Mechanics has rules, true enough, but they involve probabilities. The evidence is pretty overwhelming for those who care to read and take note.

6. ### studiot AAC Fanatic!

Nov 9, 2007
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Since you suggest these don't exist, could you define either so that if I ever came across either I could compare it with your definition?

7. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
An imaginary time means a situation of absence of Time.
The situation of absence time means Eternal condition.
The Eternal condition belongs to Infinite zero vacuum: T=0K.
=========== ===
A black hole has temperature of only one ten-millionth
of a degree above absolute zero. In 1973 the temperature
above T=0K. If the universe is destined to go on expanding
forever then the temperature will eventually decrease to less
than that of black hole . . . to zero: T=0K.
So.
There are three basic similarities between black hole and zero vacuum:
a) both have imaginary time
b) both have the same temperature
Therefore black hole is zero vacuum.
=============..

8. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,772
2,540
Actually black holes have temperatures. They radiate according to their mass. A small black hole (in theory) explodes as it dissipates its remaining mass.

9. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics
Quote:
Interpretation of the laws
The four laws of black hole mechanics suggest that one should identify
the surface gravity of a black hole with temperature and the area
of the event horizon with entropy, at least up to some multiplicative
constants.
If one only considers black holes classically, then they have zero
temperature and, by the no hair theorem, zero entropy, and the laws
of black hole mechanics remain an analogy.
However, when quantum mechanical effects are taken into account,
at a temperature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics
====…

Correct. It means that from the Classical point of view
black hole is zero vacuum T=0K. It means that all the fields,
such as the gravitational field and electromagnetic field have to be zero.
Then it seems that the Universe must to be a dead continuum.
But . . . . .
But thanks to " The Second law of thermodynamics"/ Entropy
the infinite zero vacuum continuum (T=0K) can somehow emit
"Virtual particles" which somehow can create the Material Universe.
==============…
P.S.
1.) Henry Poincare named the conception of "entropy "
as a " surprising abstract ".
2.) Lev Landau (the Nobel Prize in Physics 1962) wrote:
" A question about the physical basis of the
entropy monotonous increasing law remains open ".
3.) Wilhelm Ostwald (the Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1909 ) said :
" the entropy is only a shadow of energy".
4.) The famous mathematician John von Neumann said to
"the father of information theory" Claude Shannon:
" Name it "entropy" then in discussions
nobody knows, what "entropy" basically is ".
=======================…

10. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,772
2,540
But classic physics is as dead as the flat Earth theory. Time to use some new theories.

11. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
The Classical / Newtonian physics is as correct as the Quantum theory.

12. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,772
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Uh, no. It is not. Time Dialation, for one. Particle physics, for another. It has been walked away from as a viable theory. It is useful for the approximations it offers, but they are just that.

Cracks in that theory started appearing when they maped out the orbit of the planet Mercury, around 100 years ago.

13. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Classical / Newtonian physics like Classical electrodynamics just can't explain completely how the universe functions. Wanting it to be that way just doesn't work when easy to prove experiments say otherwise.

Saying current flow in a metal conductor is the flow of free electrons is an example. The “Drude” free electron theory just doesn't work to explain why we can have a positive Hall coefficient (there are only electrons moving in the same average direction both in the case of electron or hole conductivity) in metals like cadmium or tungsten but the effect is of positive charge carriers. If the Hall coefficient was solely dependent on the charge of the carrier, 'hole flow' could only be negative but its not so there must be something deeper. That something deeper is modern quantum mechanical theory.
http://courses.washington.edu/phys431/hall_effect/hall_effect.pdf
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/courses/173_308/SampleLabs/Hall Effect_Caravelli1.pdf

Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
14. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
All laws of physics are limited and according to QT
when they go to the limit all physical parameters (space,
time, energy, mass . . . ) disappear.
This limit according to QT is called "vacuum".
But these physical parameters can be reborn through
"vacuum fluctuation/transformation"
What can be done with this data mining?
===============..

15. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,772
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And tou point is?

The data mining comment made no sense to me.

Aug 27, 2009
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17. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
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Using unknown "hidden variables" and Heisenberg uncertainty
principle you can reproduce everything that you want.
====

18. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Including things like time travel and FTL communication if Classical / Newtonian physics could explain everything.

19. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
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Quantum entanglement?

20. ### BR-549 Well-Known Member

Sep 22, 2013
2,168
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The physical process of energy quantization proves that length and time are constant.

The same process shows that there is no mass.

Mass is not fundamental, it's only apparent.

Mass is rotational resonance.

All force and all energy is transferred thru rotational resonance.