# Thinking outside of the box.

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by cjdelphi, Feb 13, 2011.

1. ### cjdelphi Thread Starter New Member

Mar 26, 2009
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With every reaction there's an equal opposite reaction, but just how close are we right now in almost 100% efficiency, there's always energy losses so i started racking my brain out..

If you stored compressed oxygen under water and simply had a pulley of some kind, inflating a huge rubber object with the compressed air, that would then float up to the surface pulling up/down on a pulley system which then gets converted into electric and supplied out to the grid..

But here's my logic, if it's deep enough below the sea as it rises all the way up to the top of the water, do you think it's possible to produce more energy back than what you did to begin with to compress the oxygen into liquid form and then into the cylinders... maybe build a power station at the bottom of a deep sea bed along with a lot of pulleys, when it reaches the top, the object deflates and it sinks back down to the floor again..

have multiples of this system going producing the compressed oxygen at the bottom of the sea maybe with pipes leading down to supply the oxygen, 10 - 20 - 50 of these all going, imagine doing a mile under water or 2 or even 10... it is the sea after all so size is not a big deal and oxygen or even air from the surface can simply be pumped down not even compress the oxygen, just pump and fill and off it goes, at the top it deflates and slowly comes back down again more air goes in (have 10 - 20, 1000 who's going to care under the sea)

Do you think this is even a viable option? it's not exactly 'over unity' just taking the advantage of air and water, my concern is how much energy is required to pump it down, if it's more than what you get out, this idea's gone, anyone else have any thoughts on this?

2. ### magnet18 Senior Member

Dec 22, 2010
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It might be used to produce power, but you still have to get the oxygen down to the bottom of the ocean, and deal with the pressures in probably complicated ways.
Id say its doubtful, but it is an interesting idea.

3. ### nerdegutta Moderator

Dec 15, 2009
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Interesting thought. But you still need some energy to produce energy.

Saw on Discovery, some dudes made electricity out of waves. That was pretty awesome. When it was all set up, they didn't need energy to produce energy. Of course you can say that the waves was the energy they needed...

4. ### thatoneguy AAC Fanatic!

Feb 19, 2009
6,357
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This is a MUCH better place to tap tidal energy.

Nobody has the foresight to harness these massive amounts of energy in locations concentrated across the globe.

Hydro dams on rivers are readily utilized with great efficiency and zero emissions.

The problem with tides (and ANY "green power") is storing the energy for "peak hours".

5. ### cjdelphi Thread Starter New Member

Mar 26, 2009
272
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The best method i've seen is to simply pump the water up and store it until peak demand hits and they release the flood gates... then pump it back again. but converting a green energy idea as you say like solar or anything wind, you can hardly store it in a 2 square mile 100ft high 240vdc battery although i'd like one to run my house on

6. ### cjdelphi Thread Starter New Member

Mar 26, 2009
272
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Do you think an LM317 would be able to cope with a 240vdc down to 12vdc it's a joke i'm not serious what would be the best way anyway? PWM?

7. ### Markd77 Senior Member

Sep 7, 2009
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The biggest problem is that compressing the oxygen heats it up. This heat is most likely wasted, bringing the efficiency way down.

8. ### Papabravo Expert

Feb 24, 2006
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Let me consult the magic 8-ball........
Ummmm...."Datasheet says no!"

9. ### blueroomelectronics AAC Fanatic!

Jul 22, 2007
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Overbalanced wheels were one of the first forms of perpetual motion machine concepts, have been around for centuries and don't work. Yours in a sort of take on the bucket brigade wheels.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Amazingly some fellow managed to get his through the patent office in 1976!

10. ### strantor AAC Fanatic!

Oct 3, 2010
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I had an idea similar to this once before and after I looked into it, the available information suggested that in a closed loop system like you described, you will always lose. In order for this system to produce more than what you put in, you need to have some outside energy entering the equation, which I don't see evidence of here. In the tidal shift methods, you are harnessing the energy of the tide, which was already available. In your example, you are harnessing the energy of what? ... the energy of the compressed air expansion, which you already expended energy from elsewhere to compress. I think also that you might be underestimating the power it takes to compress gasses; look into the power consumption of some of the high capacity industrial air compressors used in manufacturing plants (i'm talking the ones that are the size of 18-wheeler trailers, because that's what you'd need, and plenty of 'em) and such = outrageous.

11. ### cjdelphi Thread Starter New Member

Mar 26, 2009
272
2

How about simply forcing the oxygen down a pipe straight into a chamber which is simply full of air 1000+ psi? I'm just trying to get my head around how much energy required input to get more out, because if you only get a 3watts more per meter when floating up to the top, then go further down deeper but again the energy to pump it that further down...

12. ### magnet18 Senior Member

Dec 22, 2010
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no matter what you do it will take more energy to lower it than you will get from it

13. ### thatoneguy AAC Fanatic!

Feb 19, 2009
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If you are getting 3 watts per meter of rise, you are putting at least that much energy in compressing the gas to 1k psi on the "down side".

As stated, this is essentially a new take on the centuries old "unbalanced wheel".

People have problems with scale. A very contemporary version is the 100 million cuts in spending on a 3 trillion budget. Video of concept

14. ### spinnaker AAC Fanatic!

Oct 29, 2009
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It always angers me every time, I visit Antigua. Tons of wind, sun, waves and tide and they burn diesel fuel.

Apr 23, 2010
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16. ### jpanhalt AAC Fanatic!

Jan 18, 2008
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@spinnaker

Yea, but think of all the diesel you burn getting there too. Unless, of course, you get there in a sailplane.

John