Thinking about Photon.

Discussion in 'Physics' started by socratus, May 31, 2013.

  1. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
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    Thinking about Photon.
    1
    When photon moves at light of speed
    ( about 299 792 458 m/s .c=1) then photon itself shrinks into
    a flat geometrical figure ( light - photon doesn't shrink outside
    distance, road or spacetime )
    Conclusion:
    According to SRT photon is not a firm particle,
    it can change its geometrical form.
    2
    When photon moves at light of speed ( about 299 792 458 m/s. c=1 )
    its own time is zero ( infinite )
    Question:
    Where does the ours known time come from?
    3
    Gravity can change the straight movement of photon,
    Question:
    Where does the gravity come from?
    4
    In which reference frame photon moves, if gravity
    ( as Sun and many others outside gravity objects )
    can change photon's movement ?
    ===...
     
  2. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
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    It's still undecided if there is a photon as such. Light is part of the same electro-magnetic spectrum as radio waves and X-ray/Gamma-rays.

    I have never heard of anyone thinking that radio transmitters are emitting low frequency 'photons' therefore the idea that photons may not exist as a discrete 'particle' is worth considering.
     
  3. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Best guesses. A photon exists in the every present now, it is a timeless particle. From the beginning of time to the end of the universe is all the same to it.

    It is created by the coherent merge of electric and magnetic waves. Current experiments show the classic duality, it can be a particle or a wave, depending on the experiment.

    As mentioned, an X-ray photon, a light photon, a radio photon are all photons, fundamentally the same. They have a base frequency, that is the only difference.

    Since their path can be bent by gravity and acceleration it used to be argued they have mass. I understand that theory is currently out of favor. I don't even try to understand that one nowdays.

    Photons are a way for electrons to either add or subtract energy, and jump valence shells. There is a fundamental link between electrons and photons, just as their is for magnetic fields and electric fields.

    I am so going to regret commenting on this thread.
     
  4. LDC3

    Active Member

    Apr 27, 2013
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    Since a photon is traveling at c, then it must either have an infinite mass, or zero mass. To get an infinite mass traveling that fast, it requires infinite energy. Since there are an uncountable number of photons traveling at c, and there is lots of energy still available in the universe, I believe that a photon has zero mass. A magnetic field has zero mass, yet it influences nearby objects.

    My explanation is that a photon is a wave that exhibits particle traits.

    You have already defined your frame of reference when you state that gravity can change a photons path. Your frame of reference is in the know universe.
     
  5. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3
    1
    Pyotr Lebedev was the first to measure the pressure of light
    on a solid body in 1899. The discovery was announced at the
    World Physics Congress in Paris in 1900, and became the first
    quantitative confirmation of Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Lebedev

    It means that light must have a mass.
    2
    Your frame of reference is in the know universe
    QUOTE=LDC3;

    About which universe are you saying :
    with spacetime or with space and time ?
    ===..
     
  6. SplitInfinity

    Member

    Mar 3, 2013
    369
    9
    YES YOU ARE! LOL! Just kidding.

    From WIKI
    The photon is massless,[Note 2] has no electric charge,[12] and is stable. A photon has two possible polarization states and is described by exactly three continuous parameters: the components of its wave vector, which determine its wavelength λ and its direction of propagation. The photon is the gauge boson for electromagnetism,[13] and therefore all other quantum numbers of the photon (such as lepton number, baryon number, and flavour quantum numbers) are zero.[14]
    Photons are emitted in many natural processes. For example, when a charge is accelerated it emits synchrotron radiation. During a molecular, atomic or nuclear transition to a lower energy level, photons of various energy will be emitted, from infrared light to gamma rays. A photon can also be emitted when a particle and its corresponding antiparticle are annihilated (for example, electron-positron annihilation).
    In empty space, the photon moves at c (the speed of light) and its energy and momentum are related by E = pc, where p is the magnitude of the momentum vector p. This derives from the following relativistic relation, with m = 0:[15]

    The energy and momentum of a photon depend only on its frequency (ν) or inversely, its wavelength (λ):


    where k is the wave vector (where the wave number k = |k| = 2π/λ), ω = 2πν is the angular frequency, and ħ = h/2π is the reduced Planck constant.[16]
    Since p points in the direction of the photon's propagation, the magnitude of the momentum is

    The photon also carries spin angular momentum that does not depend on its frequency.[17] The magnitude of its spin is and the component measured along its direction of motion, its helicity, must be ±ħ. These two possible helicities, called right-handed and left-handed, correspond to the two possible circular polarization states of the photon.[18]

    As Bill and I argued in another topic specific to Photons...since a Photon carries SPIN ANGULAR MOMENTUM....such momentum is not due to Photon Frequency...although a Photon does carry energy and momentum dependent upon it's Frequency or inversely it's wavelength.

    As far as the author of this topics question..."Where does the Gravity come from?"...as such Gravity can alter the course of Light or Photons...Gravity is an effect being generated by all Celestial Bodies as well as all the Protons and Neutrons in the Universe containing the Higgs-Boson which is responsible for giving such atomic particles to obtain mass as well as Gravitational Effect being generated by Dark Matter which is spread out through out our Universe in Filamental Strands upon which it has been observed that Galactic Groupings and Clusters will tend to exist upon such a Filament Like Grid.

    It is not the direction of Photons or Light that is being changed when Light encounters Gravitational Warping of Space/Time but rather it is Space/Time that is being altered thus Light is traveling upon the warping or curvature of such Space/Time.

    Split Infinity
     
  7. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3
    Best guesses
    A photon exists in the every present now, it is a timeless particle.
    From the beginning of time to the end of the universe is all the same to it.
    Bill_Marsden
    Super Moderator
    ===.
    I can agree.


    Current experiments show the classic duality, it can be a particle
    or a wave, depending on the experiment.
    Bill_Marsden
    Super Moderator
    ==.
    I can agree

    As mentioned, an X-ray photon, a light photon, a radio photon
    are all photons, fundamentally the same.
    They have a base frequency, that is the only difference.
    Bill_Marsden
    Super Moderator
    ==.

    I like this point of view.
    The difference between quantum particles is frequency.
    As someone wrote:
    Frequency is the key to everything
    Frequency makes difference between particles.
    ( in my opinion the frequency is result of the quantum spin - s )
    ===.

    Since their path can be bent by gravity and acceleration
    it used to be argued they have mass.
    I understand that theory is currently out of favor.
    I don't even try to understand that one nowdays.
    Bill_Marsden
    Super Moderator
    ==.
    Strings of gravity vibrate at a different frequency than strings of light.
    / Roy H. Williams /
    ===.
     
  8. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3
    In which reference frame the photon exist?
    Nobody gives answer and therefore someone wrote:
    ' If you try to search for 'reference frame ' for the photon
    'emission & re-emission', you will find only some
    'Quantum-Mechanics' Mumbo jumbo and very little else.'
    My answer.
    When the quantum of light moves with the constant speed c=1
    the time for him is ‘frozen’ - stopped. Time doesn’t exist for him.
    In the other words, he has eternal time.
    It means that the reference frame where the quantum of light moves
    also must be eternal, absolute.
    ====..
    iss
     
  9. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    You have it backwards. They have no time, there is a 0 second interval for a photon from the photons point of view from beginning to end.
     
  10. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3

    ‘’ . . . a 0 second interval ‘’ . . . between photons . . . . . .
    Doesn’t it mean that photon’s reference frame have no holes?
    According to Dirac’s sea between particles
    must be ‘’ holes ‘’ of antiparticles . . . it means must be interval.
    Am I mistaken ?
    ====…
     
  11. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    To use the concept of duration (from the photons point of view) is meaningless. Time, to a photon, is a dimension that does not exist. For lack of any other reference I say 0 seconds, but again, that is because we have trouble conceiving of something that does not have duration.
     
  12. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
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    If quantum of light does not have duration in its interaction
    with matter, then . . . what QED would say ?
    ===
     
  13. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    We have duration, and we can use it to apply to the photons path, but I was talking from the photons point of view. Thing about special relativity, it is all about whose point of view y9u are talking about.

    Don't make the falicy of thinking that just because we can't conceive a concept it doesn't exist.
     
  14. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
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    Polarization
    When light travels in free space, in most cases it propagates as a transverse wave—
    the polarization is perpendicular to the wave's direction of travel.
    In this case, the electric field may be oriented in a single direction (linear polarization),
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_(waves)
     
  15. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3
    Photon- Electron self identity problems.
    The energy of x-ray photon is E=h*f
    The energy of radio photon is E=h*f
    The energy of electron is E=h*f
    What is difference between quantum particles ?
    The frequency makes difference.
    #
    Dualism of quantum particle depends on its behavior, on its impulse ( h or h* ).
    ====.
     
  16. LDC3

    Active Member

    Apr 27, 2013
    920
    160
    [​IMG]

    If the photon has no time, it cannot have a frequency. If it doesn't have a frequency, it cannot be a wave. So it is a particle.

    Oh oh. Am I going to get it now? :D
     
  17. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
    3
    Photon can have a single direction (linear polarization),
    But …..
    ‘’ They have no time, there is a 0 second interval for a photon
    from the photons point of view from beginning to end.’’
    Posted by Bill Marsden
    I try to understand Bill Marsden:
    Photon moves from point A to the point B .
    There is direction ( reference frame ) but photon in
    this reference frame has no time ‘’ there is a 0 second interval
    for a photon from the photons point of view from beginning to end.’’
    Why ?
    Because in this reference frame time doesn’t exist ,
    because it is a negative 4D pseudo-Euclidian Minkowski spacetime.
    And this negative 4D pseudo-Euclidian Minkowski spacetime is an
    absolute reference frame ( SRT ) and our earth - space (gravity space ) and
    our earth - time ( gravity time ) only ‘’ a shadow ‘’ according to Minkowski.
    =====..
    Can we take such interpretation ?
    =======
     
  18. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Photons have energy levels, but that is a variable depending from where you are looking from the outside. Don't forget red shifts and blue shifts, which is dependent on the objects speed being hit by the photons. The photon is still traveling at light speed to the object being hit in every case.
     
  19. socratus

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 26, 2012
    267
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    It is impossible to say what photon only particle.
    photon is not only a particle- corpuscular, it is a wave too.
    Maybe more correct to say: how can quantum particle produce electric waves ?
    ==..
     
  20. DerStrom8

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2011
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    Hate to break it to you, but both assumptions are wrong. A photon does have mass, but very, very little. Infinity has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of light.
     
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