The Singularity of the Past

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BestFriend, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    It has been theorized that black holes are the inverse of the construction of time-space. We all know that black holes are made from the death of giant stars -- whose death causes such a massive explosion that it twists the very fabric of the universe. This point in the twisted fabric of space-time is what we call a black hole, a point where even light can't escape its engulfing velocity.

    Now, it is said that inside a black hole, the properties of time and space switches - wherein space moves forward where one can't go back (like how we are always pushed towards the future in our time axis), and time is stationary (like how space will never move). Thus, if we enter a black hole and hypothetically survive, we will see that time stops and we all move at the speed of light towards the mass singularity in the center - something that we can't stop like how we are always pushed towards the future.

    Let us put these properties inside a 3D Cartesian plane. Let x-axis be time and the z and y-axis be 2 dimensional point in space. Based on our current understanding, outside a black hole, our graph will look like a parabolic cone extending from origin or big-bang (0,0,0) to the right -- wherein time extends to infinity and z and y axis showing space slowly expanding as our universe expands. Now inside a black hole, we can say that this graph will be transposed from origin-right parabolic cone to point-down line -- wherein the x-axis time line we all share stops from being a forward moving line and expands in a parabolic cone shape to show all points of past, present and future. And the parabolic cone shaped space becomes a downward moving line towards a singular end point.

    After considering these, I came to theorize that we can also learn about something regarding time-space outside the black hole using what we know about the black hole model. If space in a black hole is singular, then there must also be a singularity in time outside of the black hole. In order to find this singularity, it's useful to temporarily consider time as space instead of as time - so we start asking 'where' instead of 'when'. So where is this singularity? Where in time does all past, present and future all becomes one?

    The singularity of the past.

    We all got the feeling that just yesterday we are all in kinder-garden playing with toys. That it was just like yesterday when we all were just entering Freshman in High school and hitting our head in the wall because of how confusing algebraic equations are. That it wasn't long before when we lost our first tooth or got our first roller coaster ride. Now if we consider this, why does it seem that the past acts like a singularity that catches all our previous presents and futures? Maybe, because it just does.

    The singularity of our past might also explain more simply the reason why we can't go back in time. Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking have long theorized the possibility of travelling into the future, but none regarding travelling to the past.

    This theory is still a thought in progress. The singularity in our timeline might even be simply the present which encompasses all our historicity and future potential. However, the main point remains that if black-holes have a point of singularity in space, we can safely infer that outside of a black hole, time must have that point of singularity as well.

    P.S. Time-Space is just one but we separate them in our discussion to refer to the two Space-Time dominant properties. If anyone is smart enough to apply this theory into a mathematical formula feel free to do so.
     
  2. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
    15,815
    282
    Your wording is a bit off. When we consider relativistic physics, the metric we use to define events is "spacetime". The term is not divisible into just "space" or "time".

    A singularity in a relativistic context is a bit of a different animal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

    The reversibility of some event depends on a number of things - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_reversibility but is not even remotely time travel.

    Hawking posits travel by some means (say, a "wormhole) that allows a traveler to arrive at a destination faster than the light from his vicinity at the moment of departure. In that way, he has traveled into the future - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel
     
  3. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
    3,792
    948
    Consider this. The most common theory on the creation of the universe involves an infinitesimally small, infinitely dense speck of compressed matter exploding outward to fill the confines of the universe. This is the START of the universe(The Big Bang theory)

    In a black hole matter ENDS as an infinitesimally small, infinitely dense speck of compressed matter, inside an area that is effectively removed from our reality.

    Question: Is the birth of OUR universe also the creation of a black hole in another universe.
     
  4. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    I'd like to propose a singularity called time-space singularity (instead of space-time). In this singularity, the quantities that are used to measure change becomes infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system. All the historicity of a matter's past state are all densed together in such a way that it's not possible for matter to escape being changed into the present state. If we are to travel to this singularity, and hypothetically survive, we'll be pushed out of it and see the whole history of the universe unravel and become the past/previous present/previous future state.

    The speed at which we enter this time-hole might be also the speed at which we will be pushed out. It's like bungee jumping wherein the present time-horizon is the center point of the bungee cord. We jump and when we hit past this time-horizon, we get a sneak peak into the past but are quickly ejected into the present (which is actually the future after we jumped).

    We define time relative to the change in space. Our atomic clocks are set in such a way that it monitors the change in atomic frequencies. Without this change, we won't be able to tell time. Previous sun-dials depends on the change in the position of the sun. But even without the sun changing (i.e. in the north pole where the sun remains at a fixed position) it doesn't mean that time does not move. As long as there is something that changed in the vast plane of space-time, we can say that time has moved us forward.

    Now, imagine this, if we are all at the past, present and future state at the same time relatively to each other - i.e. A man moving faster than the speed of light will be able to go to the future, but as he arrived in some distant planet he will see his past state trying to fly at the speed of light in order to arrive at his current present state - then it means that there it is possible for all three states to be present in one instance of space-time.

    After imagining this for the single man, imagine the whole universe's past, previous present (a.k.a. past) and future (a.k.a present) in one single instance. This is the singularity of time-space. Since every change in the sub-atomic scale happens at the speed of light, we could say that this time-space singularity does exist outside of a black hole. We just couldn't see it because we're like fish swimming in the water. But if we live inside a black-hole and hypothetically survive, we may be able to see this singularity outside of the hole.

    Now, I will get some coffee because my head hurts from my own thoughts.
     
  5. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Yes I've considered it, however, I believe that the beginning of our universe is to the beginning of a black hole as our universe' expansion is to a black hole's evaporation.

    So 'Big Bang':'Birth of Blackhole' as 'Universe's expansion':'Black hole's evaporation'

    Thus, the singularity in a black-hole must also prove that there is a singularity outside a black-hole.

    Also I believe that there is only one universe - uni means one. It is highly possible that there are multi-verses out there. But since we can't observe them, it's still remains as science fiction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  6. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Thanks. Anyway, time and space is one and relative to each other. Time is measured as change in space. Our ancestors measure time using the change in sun and thus the sundials depend on it. Our atomic clocks measure the change in atomic frequencies. Time is simply a property of the fabric of the universe - like space.

    Think of the universe as an LCD screen, time is simply the measured change in the pixels of the screen, while space is the dimension of the screen like 1366x769. In our LCD universe, we can measure time via the movement of our mouse. We can call each change as 1 mousetime. So that if it moves 10 times we can say that 10 mousetime has passed. However, we cannot measure time without space. Nor can space exist without time. Even if we leave our mouse not moving, time still exist, it is simply 0 mousetime.

    Now it is said that light is the limiting speed at which we can change. Think of it as the refresh rate of your LCD screen. It is impossible to change or move faster than it.

    A blackhole, is something like a broken LCD screen. Light like the refresh rate does not escape the LCD cathode. And every matter or pixel is sucked inside the LCD cathode which we call the space-time singularity. Now, if there is a singularity inside the broken LCD, it must also mean that there is a singularity in the working LCD. We just can't see it because we're like fish swimming in water. We've been living in water for so long that we can't notice it. In order to see water, we have to create an instance where there is no water.

    However, imagine an LCD wherein only a spot in it doesn't work. All the rest works well. If you're a pixel sucked inside that black hole, what will you see? You will see all the instance of mousetime. You will see the history of the universe. It's like being inside the harddrive which has recorded all the instance of your screen. The reason for why you see this is because light that recorded every data in the universe is stuck in the black-hole and cannot escape. Thus you can see every single instance of time and space. Like the fish, now that you see it, it means that this singularity also exist outside the black-hole. It is simply not trapped inside the black-hole for us to see. Now, where is this singularity located? My proposal is that it is located either in our past or present.
     
  7. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
    2,536
    I ain't buying it, but nice poetry though.
     
  8. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Thanks! Just trying to share my abstract views on science.

    Anyway, if we postpone our disbelief and try to accept that our past is singular, then it also proves that our future is not pre-ordain and not singular. That our future is not simply a recorded flat tape being played but instead a play dough being squished through a mold (present) whose outcome becomes our past.

    Like matter before they enter a black hole, it is possible that they are positioned around the space coordinates before they all converge into a singular point of mass.

    With time, it is possible that our future coordinates are positioned and scattered across space-time before they converge into the present and form a singular past.

    If this is true, then it also means that we can create perfect clones - someone that doesn't just share our DNA and biology but actually share the same historicity and experience as us.

    It is not just that, if we could sneak through and see all the coordinates of matter in the future, then we could change our present 'mold' to choose the best coordinates which we would like to become.
     
  9. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
    15,815
    282
    This has the same flavor of a Medieval debate on the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin.

    Frankly, we have had any number of members who would really like anything to be possible. Mostly, they are interested in obtaining free energy from a ridiculous assemblage of outdated circuitry. We try to explain that anything is not possible. They often become hostile when we do not validate their wishes.

    Anyway, this topic is hardly physics. I will move this to Off Topic.
     
  10. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
    2,536
    You have stumbled into midst of a bunch of science buffs. You will find we are a tough crowd. :D

    When you start talking black holes I think in terms of star gates and energy sources.

    A rotating black hole has a hole in it, like a donut. The hole goes somewhere else. Where? Who knows.

    A small black hole emits lots and lots of high energy radiation, as part of the process of evaporating away. Feed it matter and it is a very compact nuclear reactor, abet a dangerous one, since the final phase of the evaporation is the explosion, nuclear style.
     
  11. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    That's ok. It's actually abstract physics, something that we could discuss about. Anyway, I bet even Einstein's peer thought that he was a lunatic for proposing a grand unifying theory of all laws.

    I'm not entirely surprised if I'm burned down in a stake for proposing the possibility of a time-space singularity outside of a blackhole. I bet I'm tasty when roasted.
     
  12. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    I didn't know black-holes has a hole in it like a donut. My perception of a black-hole was simply a hole.

    Well, regarding the high energy radiation, it was proposed by Steven Hawkins that there would be times near the event horizon when the pair of anti-matter and matter appear. The anti-matter gets sucked into the black-hole while matter emits as radiation. Now, the trapped anti-matter gets itself sucked into the singularity wherein it causes matter in there to disappear. Thus causing the slow disappearance of mass inside a black-hole - called 'evaporation'. I'm not entirely sure if it would cause a nuclear style explosion but I'll look into it.
     
  13. sceadwian

    New Member

    Jun 1, 2009
    499
    37
    BestFriend, what you're discussing isn't actually physics at all, it's psychology. Your analogies are simply put your brains panicked attempts to make sense and put order to every piece of information that it perceives, the parts you're talking about currently have no scientific absolute known qualities to them, there's a little bit of flexibility in the rational understanding of the universe currently that the mind sometimes grasp for like so much sand slipping out of it's fingers. We'll catch ANYTHING that proves that we have control over the situation and that we know the way things are in our Universe, even if it's irrational to current knowledge, it's the absolute nature of every human being to do this or we go insane wondering 'why'


    The truth is that no matter how far science progresses no matter how much more we learn we are never going to have even the vaguest actual clue of the true nature of the universe because we only have our own limited perspective as molecular matter to view it from. Basically the true nature of the Universe is beyond human comprehension.


    Simple example. All of the known computational power on this entire planet couldn't simulate accurately the effect of a 5lb hammer hitting a rock and smashing it to bits in real time, and that's even if the entire known universe were only the hammer and the rock.

    Clap your hands together right now and listen to the sound, we will NEVER possibly be able to know what actually just occurred then, we'll possibly understand the mechanics of it, but not the event itself. We are forever clueless no matter how much our knowledge grows.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  14. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
    2,536
    You left an important part out, it is rotating, and very high speed I might add. Fast enough that it has a large amount of energy just in rotation, like a fly wheel. Those little details matter in science, ignore them and you get sucked in and killed.
     
  15. R!f@@

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
    8,754
    760
    One thing I know for sure is that man is never meant to wonder in to space. Specially any where outside our solar system. The edge of our universe is the end of first of the 7 boundaries that lies as we believe.

    One can go mad if we look deep into universe. Our brains just cannot comprehend the knowledge that is left for us. We are too concerned in our differences and fighting amongst each other than sit down and learn what is out there that is left for us.
    No Matter how hard scientists try, they cannot learn the truth of the universe cause they simply won't believe what they find to be true in logic.

    One more think I like to add is that time travel is possible and one man did travel thru time. But it is for me to believe and for u to disregard. Cause in simple terms, you can't just put it all together to simply believe in it. And that no any other human can and will not travel thru time ever again.

    In truth some of us do not bother to believe about time is space. But still I cannot help to wonder what is in a black hole. If I can I would participate in such a voyage.
     
  16. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
    3,792
    948
    Silly boy. WE are in a black hole. That is what this universe is! The interior of a black hole. Simple pimple. No need to worry the mind on what mystery lies inside the heart of a black hole. Just look around you and you know what is there.


    :)
     
  17. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Actually, I thought that time is not space but actually time is relative to space and vice versa. One cannot exists without the other (like Hellboy 2: The Golden Army's Nuada and Nuala, they're relative to each other and can't exist without the other)
     
  18. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Oh ****, that explains why everything in space is so dark. :D hahaha
     
  19. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Yes, that's the spirit! Let's discuss what you think is inside a black hole? What do you think is the temperature of its core? What physics laws do you think it applies to its rotation or why does it even rotates? Is the rotation somewhat related to its gravitational pull like how rotation of the earth and orbit around the sun tells us how big our sun is?

    They say that humans only use 20% of the capacity of their brain, so I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of room for theoretical abstract physics.
     
  20. BestFriend

    Thread Starter Member

    Sep 22, 2010
    31
    0
    Psychology is the science and art of explaining and changing human mental processes and behaviors. I believe that this forum post does not describe in any way human mental processes and behaviors.

    Anyway, my approach to science has always been best describe by Sherlock Holmes's quote "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". Every law in Physics comply with this.

    What my post originally proposed is that a time-space singularity outside of a black hole is possible. If we discover where this singularity is, lots of mathematical equations can be derived - for example, the equation of time-space. If time and space's properties can be switched in a blackhole, then it is possible that both of them are inter-changeable. And since our current model of a blackhole's equation is somewhat in a shape of twisting parabolic cone, we'll know that the focal point of the parabola would not be that far from the singularity.
     
Loading...