The physics of inductance of various wire forms.

Discussion in 'Physics' started by DonEMitchell, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. DonEMitchell

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 14, 2011
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    Hello, hello,

    I want to learn to measure the inductance of a circle of heavy copper wire, like used by Intel Seattle driven with a class-E amplifier (I think) for power-transfer across a resonant ring to a sympathetic ring just like it.

    Before you go all goofy (cause it is new and if you've retired and not stayed current --surprise! wireless power-transfer is a reality --in the limited range of the near field of a magnetic resonance which has no electric field component when tuned.) It is no longer the stuff of cranks and crackpots, and many corporations are situating to produce a new market where it can be applied. One application is to park an electric car over a "power pad" which wirelessly charges at a rate of several amps to a receiver coil underneath the car. It isn't just inductive coupling --it is resonant inductive coupling.

    Step one: measure the resonant copper loop inductance (ball park = 10 megaHertz), which makes one turn around the loop. Air core.

    Step two: bend the wire into a figure-8. Air core. Measure inductance.

    Step three: lace the wire in itself to form a toroidal winding -but without any ferrous core, just air core. Measure inductance.

    I don't want to buy an inductance meter, but want to use a scope and smart tricks to work it out --arghhh... I want to do the math.

    I did have four calculus courses that have petrified in the three decades not used. I might could brush up with a point in the right direction

    ---

    I'm retired from programming and simple logic circuits, have a basic knowledge of ohms law, and know what most components do. Most words and terms I know about.

    This will be the beginning of a more scientific effort by a friend and I in the Natural Philosophy Alliance. Nat. Phil. is the old term for physics. I'm starting my edjicashun with these questions of how to start.

    So, this is an adventure, like my science projects were in high school, when I started basically clueless and learned my way there.

    Why?

    Research has found (but is not accepted by the mainstream) that there is a notch frequency of a conductor that is dependent upon the scale of the conductor where the conductor's near-field coheres into the EM resonant envelope. (Eugene Podkletnov, Ph.D did it with superconductors --and says that superconductors are not required.)

    I've googled and read much on electronics. I've had one year of EE fundamentals way back before the wars (Vietnam, etc.)... and am an above average idiot.

    Thanks anyone/all.


    AZ
     
  2. Papabravo

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    Would a signal generator be an OK purchase? If so you can measure the inductance using a variable resistor and a signal generator and an oscilloscope. Just make an RL circuit, feed a square wave into it, and based on the response you can compute the inductance. This technique can be used to confirm your theoretical calculation of the inductance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
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  3. nsaspook

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    "Nucleo-phononic resonance"

    :D
     
  4. DonEMitchell

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 14, 2011
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    Thank you Papabravo.

    I think I can wrangle the needed algebra out of the tutorials here.

    AZ
     
  5. DonEMitchell

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    Dec 14, 2011
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    Please tell me... where did you find this term? I've never heard it used by anyone (but me)... and would love to find somebody else as crazy as me.

    I'm on thin ice talkin' 'bout this stuff in engineering circles... engineers like to do it in familiar territory... and this borders on fringe work that scientists ignore because Podkletnov amplified his week gravity effect with 'nucleophononic' resonance (RF coherence to the Meissner field scale-resonance.) And nobody admits to working on gravity related stuff but a handful of tenured researchers.

    But... Intel produces all the electronic tricks needed (to touch nucleosonic effects) in their wireless gizmos, except for the proper scale needed for the physical resonance to overlap the EM resonance.

    My direction is toward resonant refrigeration --which is way down the road and pending some tricks work.


    AZ
     
  6. DonEMitchell

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    Dec 14, 2011
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  7. nsaspook

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    :D
    I smile because most of the fringe stuff has some basis in scientific fact but people take quantum scale effects and try to apply them to the macro scale world.

    As for wireless energy, it's great but almost all the electrical energy supplied today has a few wireless links called "transformers" and all utility electrical energy travels via a near-field around the wires anyway so focusing the EM fields a few feet don't seem to be such a big deal to me. I am happy to see we are starting to have some wireless power standards for all the little gizmos we keep making.
    https://www.idt.com/document/bodos-power-article-wireless-charging
     
  8. davebee

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    Oct 22, 2008
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    "Research has found (but is not accepted by the mainstream) that there is a notch frequency of a conductor that is ..."

    What research? Can we see it?
     
  9. #12

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  10. DonEMitchell

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    Dec 14, 2011
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    Exactly. Mom didn't have any dumb kids. Please allow me to carry on about the implications of a smile... just making my head rattle.

    And the implied impossibility of your sense, is the reason engineers stick with the text books. It is a social camp, that attracts a smile from kind souls.

    The unpopular fringe researcher, like Boltzmann, if they care too much, end up suicidal, like Boltzmann, who modeled steam power (realizing Boltzmann's constant).

    It's a twisted world I tell ya.

    What motivates my directions, which is what you're smiling about I gather, is the work of Frank Znidarsic.

    The quantum to macro implies an Avogadro-number scale of field quanta mediation. Naive attempts to demonstrate this successfully would be very damaging to any modern electronic equipment if succeesful, by the shear magnitude of the number of quanta brought through a phase inversion when a phase-geometry is established at the coherence length of the quantum duration's expression in the near field of the conductor matter lattice. The bridge crossing this IS THE MAGIC that excites me about coherence-merging with the protonic near field of the conductor system. That engineering feat is not the focus of this thread (hobbies need their strange attractor, too), and none of this's more than the explanation of the direction of my interest.

    Please, do remember that this project thread is about measuring inductance.

    The quantum-to-macro stuff is for the curious critic and closet fringe experimenter --who have more than once been found within a standardized engineering community.

    Znidarsic outlines that magic explaining the sense of the 'Znidarsic velocity' of 1.094 meter-microseconds. That number represents the bridge between quantum and macro. It is the coupling constant between the photon and the nuclear phonon.

    Old retired farts like me have no career path to derail by doing things young engineers dreamed of... but their boss got all big-eyed and forbid it.

    I just don't care. It's all about the project and the shoestring budget my sweetie wife allows! (philosophy dump --> off)


    AZ
     
  11. DonEMitchell

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 14, 2011
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    I'll sure try to build the picture from references at a few links.

    ==Physics on the fringe==
    ===Papers by Podkletnov and a video interview===
    http://portal.groupkos.com/index.php?title=Eugene_Podkletnov_portal
    You'll find transcribed under the videos the remarks by Eugene that I find most significant as relates to the practical implementation of EM coupling to the thermodynamic black body (or Meissner field for the well budgeted lab). My opinion from the well informed fringe: electronic quantum refrigeration effects will be obtained long before materials science or military secrecy allows complete geometric phase manipulation of an electromagnetic BEC.

    ==Papers by Znidarsic==
    Mostly about one: 'Control of the Natural Forces'
    Frank applies the frequencies of cold-fusion experimental data and Podkletnov's data of an RF resonance against a meter-circumference superconducting disk to derive 1.094 meter-microseconds discussed in the philosophy dump above.
    http://portal.groupkos.com/index.php?title=Control_of_the_Natural_Forces

    ===AlienScientis.com on youtube===
    This guy is seriously out there, and I do not care about most of the conspiracy stuff (except for the stuff I already knew about from a DARPA contract op):
    The Science of TRUTH
    by AlienScientist•117 videos
    A rational approach to Fringe Science, Aliens, and Conspiracy Theories. Visit the Forum, join the argument: www.alienscientist.com
    But to hear him describe Znidarsic is exciting --especially for the non-newtonian renegade amateur shoestring scientist:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ykCWaVcjSA

    And AlienScientist walks through the simple classical physics Znidarsic uses to describe the source-cause of Planck's constant...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr_s28wIOzQ

    And to put this in order... the above is fringe, and there is no text book, and most of the fringe contingent are disliked by academically entrenched and well funded research (its all about money and ethos some say, church of newton, yadeeya). Like it or not, all of the modern science was born as an idea beyond the fringe, and the thinker-upper was typically not at all accepted by his peers.

    ==keeping it science==
    The fringe exists in spite of academic oppression by thought police, like the cold fusion excitement was debunked ad nauseum by Bob Parks.

    We advance technologically because the fringe exists, while academia complexifies things to agree with citational hierarchy... even when modern data falsifies antique models.

    Ideas need tested more than debunked --but the debunkers do serve to keep down the truely ignorant. Podkletnov amplified a weak gravity anomaly with a 2 megavolt charge dump. He's on interview claiming his team bent steel, pulverized concrete. His original experiment was to simply test the speed of gravity.

    This thread is about learning to test first the inductance of various geometries of the same length of wire, mapping characteristics from straight, circular, helical, and toroidal.

    Beyond this thread the measurement of the conjugal interaction of the resonant envelope with itself across the hole of the torus wire form... can graduate with the math being developed within the Natural Philosophy Alliance. The whole point of understanding the EM resonance on a 3D topology is toward a sympathetic model macro-quantum resonator that entertains the same field dynamics as the small one, and finds the near field a stochastic energy source while the black body energy remains available... a.k.a. a refrigerator.

    AZ
     
  12. DonEMitchell

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 14, 2011
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    Thanks #12!

    That's exactly where I'm wanting to go, especially when I got past the measurement know-how and go to the frequency sweeps. It would be cool to automate with an Arduino and graph it out and what not.

    But by using Papabravo's advise to scope the waveform as a start, I'd like to tune a circuit like yours to drive an analog meter and use that as a 'grid-dip' of sorts for use when manually manipulating the curve radii of the knot groups --the knots will change shape to implement variable inductors, toward tweaking into a shape that encourages phi damping of the transient harmonics, and a proper self-reflective symmetry of the physics invovled that is a story of another fringe group not really identified yet (Baltic region conference mid 2000s). Still on the hunt at a retirement pace.

    First steps to follow: apply inductive equations to the circuit used, and calibrate to some workable engineering standard.

    Questions: would the same measurement theory work at any frequency with the proper components (in theory)? Within limits determined by? Are other tricks better for sweeping for the natural resonance of a solid loop (1 meter circumference)? The operating range is assumed to be under 20 megahertz, and resonant coil sizes will be chosen to keep under that ceiling. Is there a better arbitrary top design frequency that would make test-equipment easier to make? Or better to calibrate? Etc.?

    The resonant effects relating to quantum response time is lower for larger conductive harmonic systems. Bigger is more expensive. Shoestring science likes higher frequencies at some user-friendly level.


    AZ
     
  13. atferrari

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    Albeit unable to follow the subejct I am impressed by the wording in use!
     
  14. davebee

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    Oct 22, 2008
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    There are lots of ways to find the inductance of a coil of wire. They almost all need some kind of equipment, so the best technique for you may depend on what equipment you have or would be willing to get.

    You could calculate the inductance from wire geometry formulas, using the number of turns, coil length, etc. That wouldn't cost anything, and would be a useful exercise to go through in any case.

    If you have access to a variable frequency source and some kind of signal measuring device (ac voltmeter or oscilloscope) , you could connect a capacitor in parallel with the coil and measure the frequency where the pair resonate. That can find the inductance of the coil at the test frequency up to the precision of how well you know the value of the capacitor and how well you know the frequency of the source. Many capacitors aren't specified to any better than 5% or 10% tolerance, so keep that in mind.

    You can use Papabravo's technique of connecting either the coil or the capacitor in series with a resistor, measuring the the ac signal at the junction, then calculating the reactance of the device based on how the ac signal divides. That will work for measuring both the inductor and the capacitor.

    If you don't have access to a frequency source, you could tune an inductor-capacitor pair to the signal of a local AM radio station. That would at least get you a stable, fixed frequency; all you'd need to know is the value of the capacitor to be able to state the inductance of the coil. If you build a simple tuned-rf AM radio receiver, you can listen to the audio to identify the station and know the frequency. Even cheap op-amps should be good enough to amplify an AM radio signal large enough to rectify and listen to as well as to measure the peak signal strength as you add or remove capacitance to resonate the coil to a given radio station, even if the only instrument you have is an inexpensive voltmeter.

    At higher frequencies, coils will start to self-resonate because of their own capacitance effects, so it can get tricky to isolate the inductance by itself. At that point, you'd need to start modeling the coil as having resistance and inductance along with distributed internal capacitance, which can get complicated.

    It's great fun to track down unexpected mysteries of physics. Lots of times conventional thought is correct, so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the hardnosed mainstream, but as you point out, history has cases where the wacky theories of past centuries have turned out to become accepted as fact. So I'm curious what your research will show.
     
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  15. thatoneguy

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    Same here. I've already won on two separate Buzzword Bingo cards!
     
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  16. ErnieM

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    If I order one of these in the next 10 minutes (because we can't do this all day long) do I get a free ice crusher with it?
     
  17. The Electrician

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    Download this document:

    http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/refs/NBS/Sci169noerr.pdf

    Everything you always wanted to know about inductance is there.

    On page 110 and following is the calculation for the inductance of a ring conductor.

    You can find a decent handheld LCR meter on eBay for $100 or so, which would be a lot easier to use than a scope and signal generator.
     
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  18. #12

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    I bought an Extech LCR meter. It was a POS. I dropped it in the trash can about a year after I bought it.
     
  19. #12

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    The first mode of operation is "slow". This is indicated by a horizontal scope line at the 10 ohm current measuring resistor. Good stuff for beginners. The next mode would be the slope of the line at the 10 ohm resistor. (dI/dT)/V will calculate the effective inductance. As for sweeping frequencies? I never had that in mind when I designed this rig. Still, it might work, within limits that you will have to discover by yourself. I don't even have an RF generator and board layout and switching speed become a factor in that range.
     
  20. SplitInfinity

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    Don...you posted...Ideas need tested more than debunked --but the debunkers do serve to keep down the truely ignorant. Podkletnov amplified a weak gravity anomaly with a 2 megavolt charge dump. He's on interview claiming his team bent steel, pulverized concrete. His original experiment was to simply test the speed of gravity

    Now...I might be talking about the wrong association to this but here we go...We characterize GRAVITY as the Expression of One Dimensionality within our Universal Space/Time Dimensional Reality. We know that all Atomic Particles such as Protons and Neutrons are compleately comprised of Quantum Particle/Wave Forms such as Quarks, Glueons, Leptons, Mesons, Higgs-Bosons...etc. Thus all Atomic Particles as well as those of Mass are at their base state...Energy. Thus...as the looked for Unified Field Theory would show...Matter and Energy are interchangable.

    Therefore...any Quantity of Energy SHOULD be able to represent Mass.

    In your statement above...you talk of how Podkletov amplified a weak Gravity anomaly with a 2 Megavolt charge dump. I believe this was accomplished because that dump of charge translated into the Universe seeing this anomaly after the dump as a Greater Mass thus having a greater Gravitational Effect.

    What is Podkletov stating the reasoning being?

    Split Infinity
     
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