I'm not buying it.

Neither am I ... but hand over that $5 ...

Seriously now, I agree with you. I think this must be verified by other independent teams before digging further at a larger scale. It wouldn't be the first time that a credited research team got things wrong... then again, this paper will definitely motivate the competing teams to be more meticulous in their research ... imagine the potential if it is indeed verified as true!

Truth is, I don't fully understand your objection as to it's feasibility. Why exactly do you think this qualifies as an over unity device? That is, could you please elaborate in more detail your argument? I'm asking because I want to sincerely understand, not just to prod you or anything.

 

Neither am I ... but hand over that $5 ...

Seriously now, I agree with you. I think this must be verified by other independent teams before digging further at a larger scale. It wouldn't be the first time that a credited research team got things wrong... then again, this paper will definitely motivate the competing teams to be more meticulous in their research ... imagine the potential if it is indeed verified as true!

Truth is, I don't fully understand your objection as to it's feasibility. Why exactly do you think this qualifies as an over unity device? That is, could you please elaborate in more detail your argument? I'm asking because I want to sincerely understand, not just to prod you or anything.

I'm told AIAA would only accept the paper if White and his colleagues ditched the Quantum Vacuum theory and just published the results of their research without trying to explain it.

If you assume the EMdrive is a closed system with only internal pushing forces then it's the equivalent of pushing on the windshield inside a car because conservation of momentum dictates that any purely electromagnetic system that is enclosed cannot produce thrust. This is for both quantum theory and classical electrodynamics. It's physically impossible, like a toy helicopter flying inside a closed box causing the box to fly.

What happens if we somehow escape momentum conservation (and energy conservation) with a reactionless EMdrive? (electricity being turned directly into thrust in defiance of the conservation of momentum law)

This is how most people see it.
What happens is we have a perpetual motion/over-unity machine a some speed less than light speed if the thrust/power ratio is better than that of a photon rocket (3.33 µN/kW). That point depends on the thrust, the higher the thrust the lower the speed as acceleration increases. You have constant acceleration from your energy input, but your kinetic energy is going up with the square of your velocity(non-relativistic speeds) , and at some point you're getting more energy out than you put in because of no losses from the propellant. In rockets, the propellant loses more energy the faster the rocket is going, allowing the rocket to experience constant thrust, while conserving E&M.

If the effect is not bogus for space flight application (thrusting for deltaV) then it is not bogus for energy generation, it's simply basic physics and engineering.
Put EmDrive thrusters on the edge of a giant flywheel and hook it to a generator to extract the extra power.

They seem to earlier claim that Quantum Vacuum was the propellant earlier to get around claims of momentum conservation violations but that's not in the released paper because it's been debunked already.

 

I'm told AIAA would only accept the paper if White and his colleagues ditched the Quantum Vacuum theory and just published the results of their research without trying to explain it.

If you assume the EMdrive is a closed system with only internal pushing forces then it's the equivalent of pushing on the windshield inside a car because conservation of momentum dictates that any purely electromagnetic system that is enclosed cannot produce thrust. This is for both quantum theory and classical electrodynamics. It's physically impossible, like a toy helicopter flying inside a closed box causing the box to fly.

What happens if we somehow escape momentum conservation (and energy conservation) with a reactionless EMdrive? (electricity being turned directly into thrust in defiance of the conservation of momentum law)

This is how most people see it.
What happens is we have a perpetual motion/over-unity machine a some speed less than light speed if the thrust/power ratio is better than that of a photon rocket (3.33 µN/kW). That point depends on the thrust, the higher the thrust the lower the speed as acceleration increases. You have constant acceleration from your energy input, but your kinetic energy is going up with the square of your velocity, and at some point you're getting more energy out than you put in because of no losses from the propellant. In rockets, the propellant loses more energy the faster the rocket is going, allowing the rocket to experience constant thrust, while conserving E&M.

If effect is not bogus for space flight application (thrusting for deltaV) then it is not bogus for energy generation, it's simply basic physics and engineering.
Put EmDrive thrusters on the edge of a giant flywheel and hook it to a generator to extract the extra power.

They seem to earlier claim that Quantum Vacuum was the propellant earlier to get around claims of momentum conservation violations but that's not in the released paper because it's been debunked already.

If I understand correctly, if the report and the experiment are true and consistent then what we have here is unexplained phenomena. Pretty much the same puzzle as when astronomers watched Mercury's anomalous perihelion precession before General Relativity came along to explain it. That is, three possibilities exist:

1. That the experiment was not done correctly, and its results are therefore invalid.
2. That our current understanding of the properties of the Quantum Vacuum is either wrong or incomplete.
3. That there are new physics involved that have yet to be discovered and explained.

Personally, I lean towards option #1, just like you. But we have now reached the point in which this thing must be taken seriously, and further work is needed to understand it. And either confirm it or debunk it. Either way, I think this is a very exciting time for physics as it is!

 

People here can argue as much as they want about the EMDrive but I have just read the paper and if it is true, then it clearly works!

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120

 

if it is true, then it clearly works!

I agree... and if it really works, then it still needs further explaining!

 

I've seen some video's of people trying to create this device and they've created some thrust. I'm just trying to figure out how much, one such video shows what appears to be levitation of much more that 100 micronewtons, as explained NASA's Result.

kv

 

People here can argue as much as they want about the EMDrive but I have just read the paper and if it is true, then it clearly works!

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120

If it is true?

If it's true then we can create another big bang with the excess energy in about 256 years. (With an EMdrive that gives a constant thrust of 1G for constant input power)

 

I've seen some video's of people trying to create this device and they've created some thrust. I'm just trying to figure out how much, one such video shows what appears to be levitation of much more that 100 micronewtons, as explained NASA's Result.

kv

Thanks for the laugh! I have acceleration chambers with 30+KW of RF power into closed chambers. Maybe I can turn one into a Starwars flying carpet.

 

Seems to me that they should repeat the tests with a much larger vacuum chamber. If the observations seem independent of the scale of the surroundings, I'd be far more impressed. As it is, it looks cramped to me. It's not hard to believe there could be wall effects.

 

This section of the paper made me go "Wow!":


10. Discussion

Before providing some qualitative thoughts on the proposed physics potentially at work in the tapered RF test articles, it will be useful to provide a brief background on the supporting physics lines of thought. In short, the supporting physics model used to derive a force based on operating conditions in the test article can be categorized as a nonlocal hidden-variable theory, or pilot-wave theory for short.

Pilot-wave theories are a family of realist interpretations of quantum mechanics that conjecture that the statistical nature of the formalism of quantum mechanics is due to an ignorance of an underlying more fundamental real dynamics, and that microscopic particles follow real trajectories over time just like larger classical bodies do. The first pilot-wave theory was proposed by de Broglie in 1923 [4], where he proposed that a particle interacted with an accompanying guiding wave field, or pilot wave, and this interaction was responsible for guiding the particle along its trajectory, orthogonal to the surfaces of constant phase. In 1926, Madelung [5] published a hydrodynamic model of quantum mechanics by recasting the linear Schrödinger equation into hydrodynamic form, where the Planck constant ℏ" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; text-align: left; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px 2px 0px 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">ℏℏ was analogous to a surface tension σ" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; text-align: left; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px 2px 0px 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">σσ in shallow-water hydrodynamics and vacuum fluctuations were the reason for quantum mechanics. In 1952, Bohm [6,7] published a pilot-wave theory where the guiding wave was equivalent to the solution of the Schrödinger equation and a particle’s velocity was equivalent to the quantum velocity of probability. Soon after, the Bohmian mechanics line of thinking was extended by others to incorporate the effects of a stochastic subquantum realm, and de Broglie augmented his initial pilot-wave theory with this approach in 1964 [8], adopting the parlance “hidden thermodynamics.” A family of models categorized as vacuum-based pilot-wave theories or stochastic electrodynamics (SED) [9] further explored the concept that the electromagnetic vacuum fluctuations of the zero point field represent a natural source of stochasticity in the subquantum realm and provide classical explanations for the origin of the Planck constant, Casimir effect, ground state of hydrogen, and much more.

It should be noted that the pilot-wave domain experienced an early setback when von Neumann [10] published an impossibility proof against the idea of any hidden-variable theory. This and other subsequent impossibility proofs were later discredited by Bell 30 years later in 1966 [11], and Bell went on to say in the preface of his 1987 book [12] that the pilot wave eliminated the shifty boundary between wavy quantum states on the one hand and Bohr’s classical terms on the other: said simply, there was a real quantum dynamics underlying the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics.

Although the idea of a pilot wave or realist interpretation of quantum mechanics is not the dominant view of physics today (which favors the Copenhagen interpretation), it has seen a strong resurgence of interest over the last decade based on some experimental work pioneered by Couder and Fort [13]. Couder and Fort discovered that bouncing a millimeter-sized droplet on a vibrating shallow fluid bath at just the right resonance frequency created a scenario where the bouncing droplet created a wave pattern on the shallow bath that also seemed to guide the droplet along its way. To Couder and Fort, this seemed very similar to the pilot-wave concept just discussed and, in subsequent testing by Couder and others, this macroscopic classical system was able to exhibit characteristics thought to be restricted to the quantum realm. To date, this hydrodynamic pilot-wave analog system has been able to duplicate the double slit experiment findings, tunneling, quantized orbits, and numerous other quantum phenomena. Bush put together two thorough review papers chronicling the experimental work being done in this domain by numerous universities [14,15].

In addition to these quantum analogs, there may already be direct evidence supportive of the pilot-wave approach: specifically, Bohmian trajectories may have been observed by two separate experiments working with photons [16,17]. Reconsidering the double slit experiment with the pilot-wave view, the photon goes through one slit, and the pilot wave goes through both slits. The resultant trajectories that photons follow are continuous real trajectories that are affected by the pilot wave’s probabilistic interference pattern with itself as it undergoes constructive and destructive interference due to reflections from the slits.

In the approach used in the quantum vacuum plasma thruster (also known as a Q thruster) supporting physics models, the zero point field (ZPF) plays the role of the guiding wave in a similar manner to the vacuum-based pilot-wave theories. To be specific, the vacuum fluctuations (virtual fermions and virtual photons) serves as the dynamic medium that guides a real particle on its way. Two recent papers authored by members of this investigation team explored the scientific ramifications of this ZPF-based background medium. The first paper [18] considered the quantum vacuum at the cosmological scale in which a thought experiment applied to the Einstein tensor yielded an equation that related the gravitational constant to the quantity of vacuum energy in the universe, implying that gravity might be viewed as an emergent phenomenon: a long wavelength consequence of the quantum vacuum. This viewpoint was scaled down to the atomic level to predict the density of the quantum vacuum in the presence of ordinary matter. This approach yielded a predicted value for the Bohr radius and electron mass with a direct dependency on dark energy. The corollary from this work pertinent to the q-thruster models is that the quantum vacuum is a dynamic medium and could potentially be modeled at the microscopic scale as an electron-positron plasma. The quantum vacuum around the hydrogen nucleus was considered in much more detail in the second paper [19]. Here, the energy density of the quantum vacuum was shown to theoretically have a 1/r4" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; text-align: left; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px 2px 0px 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">1/r41/r4 dependency moving away from the hydrogen nucleus (or proton). This 1/r4" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; text-align: left; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px 2px 0px 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">1/r41/r4 dependency was correlated to the Casimir force, suggesting that the energy density in the quantum vacuum is dependent on geometric constraints and energy densities in electric/magnetic fields. This paper created a quasi-classical model of the hydrogen atom in the COMSOL Multiphysics software (COMSOL is not an acronym) that modeled the vacuum around the proton as an electron-positron plasma. These analysis results showed that the n=1" role="presentation" style="display: inline; line-height: normal; text-align: left; word-spacing: normal; word-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px 2px 0px 0px; margin: 0px; position: relative;">n=1n=1 to 7 energy levels of the hydrogen atom could be viewed as longitudinal resonant acoustic wave modes in the quantum vacuum. This suggests that the idea of treating the quantum vacuum as a dynamic medium capable of supporting oscillations might be valid. If a medium is capable of supporting acoustic oscillations, this means that the internal constituents were capable of interacting and exchanging momentum.

If the vacuum is indeed mutable and degradable as was explored, then it might be possible to do/extract work on/from the vacuum, and thereby be possible to push off of the quantum vacuum and preserve the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum. It is proposed that the tapered RF test article pushes off of quantum vacuum fluctuations, and the thruster generates a volumetric body force and moves in one direction while a wake is established in the quantum vacuum that moves in the other direction.

 

This section of the paper made me go "Wow!":


10. Discussion

Before providing some qualitative thoughts on the proposed physics potentially at work in the tapered RF test articles, it will be useful to provide a brief background on the supporting physics lines of thought. In short, the supporting physics model used to derive a force based on operating conditions in the test article can be categorized as a nonlocal hidden-variable theory, or pilot-wave theory for short.

...

If the vacuum is indeed mutable and degradable as was explored, then it might be possible to do/extract work on/from the vacuum, and thereby be possible to push off of the quantum vacuum and preserve the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum. It is proposed that the tapered RF test article pushes off of quantum vacuum fluctuations, and the thruster generates a volumetric body force and moves in one direction while a wake is established in the quantum vacuum that moves in the other direction.

Pilot-wave theory isn't really a theory, it's an interpretation like Copenhagen.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2008/08/bohms-bummed-wave-theory-needs-10000x-light-speed-to-work/

Note this was in the Discussion section of the paper and not in the facts and conclusions sections. (Non)local hidden-variable theory is in conflict with quantum mechanics and is complete fringe science today.

https://doingphysicsright.wordpress.com/2016/03/22/nonlocality-fashionable-but-unreal/
https://quantumfrontiers.com/2012/11/08/its-been-a-tough-week-for-hidden-variable-theories/

 

I will only believe it when they start selling Emdrive powered sight seeing trips to Saturn and Jupiter.

This is based on my theory that if no one is making money from using it, it isn't real.

 

I will only believe it when.........

Sometime in the future, a Bacteria will make his way through the Universe in his Atomic Emdrive Space ship.

kv

 

Emission is the fundamental process that transfers angular momentum into linear momentum.

This "thrust" normally has a sorta spherical 3D "thrust" pattern. The cavity just converges that pattern into one direction.

There is no mystery here.

 

Emission is the fundamental process that transfers angular momentum into linear momentum.

This "thrust" normally has a sorta spherical 3D "thrust" pattern. The cavity just converges that pattern into one direction.

There is no mystery here.

I'm so glad you cleared that up for us. I would have liked them to use a proper null test with a symmetrical cylindrical cavity instead of a RF dummy load. That way we could see if 'thrust' was caused by cavity geometry. They failed to include any cavity geometry control in the experiment.

 

I have no idea. They never give the right details and specs so that a guy can see what's physically going on. They always try to use QM or some un-known magic to explains things now. It always has to be a "new" discovery.

But it always can be explain with modern classical physics. Everything can.

 

I'm so glad you cleared that up for us. I would have liked them to use a proper null test with a symmetrical cylindrical cavity instead of a RF dummy load. That way we could see if 'thrust' was caused by cavity geometry. They failed to include any cavity geometry control in the experiment.

That's what I was alluding to earlier. They changed a few variables like power input but to me the big question is if/how the geometry and scale of the equipment and the enclosure affects the results.

I understand research has to proceed one step at a time, and the first step was to see if they could find any effect worth pursuing. I guess they feel satisfied that they did. There are many more steps.

I'm less convinced that this is ready for a space mission. They need to have a better idea of the critical variables, and how best to give it a fair shot.

 

I'm less convinced that this is ready for a space mission.

I wonder, what would the cost be of a micro space mission. Something like putting a small satellite in orbit equipped with this tech, and test its abilities to change its motion profile.

 

No idea. I just know they could do a hell of a lot more experiments here on Earth for what it would cost. Say it's $300K to do it in space (a total SWAG on my part) and suppose it fails. Would everyone be satisfied to say that's the end of it? It's a tough call.

In my lab experience, some of my best experiments were the ones that killed projects. My colleagues spent a lot of time trying to get things to work. I'd do the critical experiment that proved it couldn't work. That wasn't always popular but it saved a lot of time and money.

I think a lot of what has been done so far was effort to show it might work. Now they need to challenge it to identify all the things that can make it not work. Because for sure nature will find a way to make your experiment not work. She has an infinite number of tricks up her sleeve.

 

This thing IMO is so goofy. The odds of this being some special quantum/pilot wave thrust shape is laughable. Any violation of momentum conservation in a closed microwave RF cavity would be the greatest discovery in physics ever.

Look, money under the pillow, it must be the Tooth Fairy. This is Tooth Fairy science, they see something so it must be magic 'new physics'.