People like that are very common. Every community has them and even most families.

For me growing up it was one of our local big time farmers that everyone kissed up to since they were 'so rich'.

Well the truth was they had a lot of stuff but when grandpa files bankruptcy about the same time son 2 becomes a pro bankruptcy lawyer (No connection really!) and son 1 takes over only to file about ten years later, passing things onto son 3 who does it again passing things to son 4 (Still all coincidental that one family member is a bankruptcy lawyer) and eventually thing go down again and grandsons XYZ take over........

Yea you can accumulate a pile of farmland and equipment if you have enough bankruptcies planed into your long term game set at just the right spacings.

Speaking of which... can bankruptcy ever be good business for some people?
I'm not kidding you, I'm totally naïve in the subject... The conundrums of American law are a complete mystery for me. I mean, if Mr Trump has done it in the past, then there has to be some sort of profit from it!

 

I have no idea but apparently with a real good bankruptcy lawyer you basically get to keep all your stuff and lose all the bills and outstanding debt you have and start over at zero. Sure you have bad credit for 7 years after but hey you still got all that stuff to live off of.

Sounds like a pretty good win if you can morally handle doing that sort of thing.

 

And it's actually pretty easy to get credit extended to you after bankruptcy because creditors know that you can't file again for seven years.

 

creditors know that you can't file again for seven years.

that's far worse than breaking a mirror!

 

apparently with a real good bankruptcy lawyer you basically get to keep all your stuff and lose all the bills and outstanding debt you have

or a really good divorce lawyer.

 

I often wonder how we went from the idea of debtors' prisons to the current view that debt is an optional obligation. Is it BECAUSE of the excesses of debtors' prisons themselves, that the pendulum has swung so far to the current absurd?

To my way of thinking, willingly defaulting on a loan is simple theft and should be punished as such. Don't pay your rent or your car payment, and it's off to jail with you. Eviction or arrest should be swift and certain. Tell your sob story to the judge. Bad things happen to good people and allowances must be made, but most of what I see these days is pure douche-baggery.

It would utterly disappear if people were forced to live with the consequences of their own bad behavior. But there seems to be zero will to anything except give these clowns ever more credit.

 

I often wonder how we went from the idea of debtors' prisons to the current view that debt is an optional obligation. Is it BECAUSE of the excesses of debtors' prisons themselves, that the pendulum has swung so far to the current absurd?

I think that that is very likely the case, coupled with an increasingly common "victim mentality" in general.

To my way of thinking, willingly defaulting on a loan is simple theft and should be punished as such. Don't pay your rent or your car payment, and it's off to jail with you. Eviction or arrest should be swift and certain. Tell your sob story to the judge. Bad things happen to good people and allowances must be made, but most of what I see these days is pure douche-baggery.

In most states certain possessions, such as a home, can be protected in a bankruptcy so that even if you have a million dollar home that is free and clear and a half-million dollars in unsecured debt, you can walk away from the half-million dollars and keep the million dollar home. Retirement savings are also generally immune and protected. That's absurd. What you own should stand good for what you owe. If the law wants to set a floor that will be protected, then it should be a floor that is consistent with some (small) multiple of the poverty level and that should be the same for everyone.

I also don't think that you should be able to walk away from your obligations at all. The courts should restructure your debts, perhaps eliminating interest and fees and extending the term to something you can afford (and that gets revisited annually so that as you make more money the amount that you have to pay on your debts goes up, but in a way so that you are always incentivized to earn more because you get to keep more).

It would utterly disappear if people were forced to live with the consequences of their own bad behavior. But there seems to be zero will to anything except give these clowns ever more credit.

It's even worse than that -- we actively seek to reward bad behavior in a multitude of ways while simultaneously punishing good behavior. You see it in almost every corner -- immigration, student loans, health care, home ownership, bankruptcy, tax collection, civil and criminal law, the list goes on and on.

 

The very idea of having my ex-wife carted off to debtor's prison is an immensely soothing and satisfying notion to contemplate.

 

The courts should restructure your debts,

we actively seek to reward bad behavior in a multitude of ways while simultaneously punishing good behavior.

1)The last time I checked, the "Scott Free Bankruptcy" was removed from availability...at least for the things I was curious about. That means I can't run amok with credit cards and expect to just ignore the results.

I learned in divorce court that, "the responsible party" is not the person who is responsible for looting the credit cards, it is the person who was responsible enough to have protected his assets and paid his bills. "You mean he is awarded all the debts and I can apply for more credit cards while honestly saying I have no previous debt?!" (Slot machine jackpot sounds.)

 

I know that the bankruptcy laws have changed over the years (what hasn't) and that it is a lot harder to be blatantly using bankruptcy as a tool to loot your creditors. But Chapter 7 bankruptcy still gives you pretty much a clean slate (though there are limits on the assets that you can keep with anything above that being liquidated). The new game players just make sure that their assets are below the caps for a minimum amount of time before they file. That's where vacations and entertainment come in.

 

All this talk about ex-wives looting everything they can on their way out brought this story to mind.

 

If it is any consolation, the most common complaint heard by women's lawyers is about how unfair life is that the ex-wives can't afford to even keep up the payments on all the things they won in divorce court. So sad!

 

First to address the curent bankruptcy discussion

People like that are very common. Every community has them and even most families.

For me growing up it was one of our local big time farmers that everyone kissed up to since they were 'so rich'.

Well the truth was they had a lot of stuff but when grandpa files bankruptcy about the same time son 2 becomes a pro bankruptcy lawyer (No connection really!) and son 1 takes over only to file about ten years later, passing things onto son 3 who does it again passing things to son 4 (Still all coincidental that one family member is a bankruptcy lawyer) and eventually thing go down again and grandsons XYZ take over........

Yea you can accumulate a pile of farmland and equipment if you have enough bankruptcies planed into your long term game set at just the right spacings

When I was at college a flatmate brought in a local newspaper from his home town one year.

The headline ran

Chinese restaurent steeps peas in toilet.

He said that yes this restaurent was always being prosecuted and closed down for public health violations.
Each time the family had a new kid , transferred the business to the new name and carried on.

As regards to the original post

You should look up

The Secrist Fallacy

Which had a massive impact on economic theory and action in the mid part of the twentieth century, until it was proved to be mathematically flawed by Hotelling.

However the same fallacy was promted again in the 1980s and 1990s by (economics) Nobel prize winners an other high profile economists.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..6.19.2155.8ZDtpRCwGBQ

 

You've lost me, @studiot . Maybe HP can step in and simplify this for me.
Maybe I just need that second cup of coffee.

 

You've lost me, @studiot . Maybe HP can step in and simplify this for me.
Maybe I just need that second cup of coffee.

And I'm fixing myself the first one of the day.... freshly ground from whole beans and directly from Chiapas, the best coffee there is in Mexico

 

I had a bowl of blueberries followed by the reminder of a pan of chocolate chip brownies for breakfast.

I don't do the coffee thing.

 

And I'm fixing myself the first one of the day.... freshly ground from whole beans and directly from Chiapas, the best coffee there is in Mexico

Be sure to check your yard for dog poop while it is still fresh with the morning dew.

 

the definition of poor has changed alot in the past 100 years. You csn have a car, an apartment, air conditioning and central heat, an HD TV, an Xbox, a refrigerator and freezer, a stove and microwave, a bank account, and based on family size and income still be declared "POOR"

 

Be sure to check your yard for dog poop while it is still fresh with the morning dew.

boy you sure know how to ruin morning optimism...

 

boy you sure know how to ruin morning optimism...

I speak from experience. Dog Poop is easier to hose into oblivion when Mother Nature has already moistened it.