The Bible Is Not A Historical Document

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BoyntonStu, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0
    For example: What non-Biblical evidence exists that the Israelite were slaves in Egypt?

    BoyntonStu
     
  2. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    Do you want to discuss history or argue religion? Discussions and debates, even spirited ones, are indeed allowed. Anti-ethnic commentary or "talking dirt" about another person's belief would be in blatant violation of the rules you have agreed to follow.
     
  3. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    Oh, and run an internet search on "Merneptah stela." In other words: yes, there is, albeit a controversial one.
     
  4. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0

    "Merneptah stele" is vague and uncertain.

    Not much data there to make a conclusion about the Israelite in Egypt.

    Is there any non-Biblical data regarding a historical Jesus?

    BoyntonStu
     
  5. Nanophotonics

    Active Member

    Apr 2, 2009
    365
    3
    Good question. Many people don't even ask themselves the question and many others believe it's a "sin" to ask that kind of questions.

    Cheers.
     
  6. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    There is some evidence, again controversial, that Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy descendant of the House of David, took his son to Cornwall and other places. Evidence also exists of Joseph paying for the tomb.

    Now here's one for you, Stu: How hard is it to look this stuff up yourself? Are you truly interested in knowing the answers to these questions? Or are you posting them simply to argue about religion?
     
  7. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0

    "Good question. Many people don't even ask themselves the question and many others believe it's a "sin" to ask that kind of questions."

    "Now here's one for you, Stu: How hard is it to look this stuff up yourself? Are you truly interested in knowing the answers to these questions? Or are you posting them simply to argue about religion?"

    Compare the two posts.

    Have you ever looked for historical evidence about Jesus?

    Is it a 'sin' to ask the question?

    I have looked for a long time, and I have never found a single non-Biblical source that indicates that Jesus existed.

    I can find out what Cicero had for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

    For example:

    Marcus Tullius Cicero (pronounced /ˈsɪsɨroʊ/; Classical Latin: [ˈkikeroː]; January 3, 106 BC – December 7, 43 BC) was a Roman philosopher, statesman, lawyer, political theorist, and Roman constitutionalist. Cicero is widely considered one of Rome's greatest orators and prose stylists.[1][2]

    The were numerous writers of the time of Cicero that recorded the events as they occurred.

    The overwhelming evidence proves that Cicero existed.


    There is no argument about religion when a question of History is raised.


    Do you have any historical non controversial information that indicates Jesus was a historical figure?


    BoyntonStu
     
  8. Nanophotonics

    Active Member

    Apr 2, 2009
    365
    3
    Personally, I haven't found any either, though, I can barely remember I watched a doc on TV once showing original manuscripts of the bible, but who wrote it? According to them it wasn't Jesus who did. But I do believe that Jesus could have existed and the simple fact or evidence is, simply just look around you. I don't think we could have been "brainwashed" that easily for us to believe in Jesus. I think he might not have been son of God as such as they proclaimed he was, but I believe he was a very wise and peaceful person with great divine inspiration, i.e., more like a prophet, but what kind of proofs do we want to confirm it? I personally think it varies from individual to individual.

    Thanks.
     
  9. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0
    "I don't think we could have been "brainwashed" that easily for us to believe in Jesus."


    I might add:


    I don't think we could have been "brainwashed" that easily for us to believe in Jesus, Moses, Thor, Jupiter, Unicorns, Angels, Lucifer, Hell, Jonah, 900 year old men, Adam. Eve, talking snakes, ET, Over Unity etc ....

    Actually, brainwashing is pretty easy and it happens every day.

    Consider NAZI Germany, North Korea, and suicide bombers seeking 72 Virgins in Paradise.

    Let's agree to stick to facts and stay away from opinions and beliefs.

    BoyntonStu
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
  10. Nanophotonics

    Active Member

    Apr 2, 2009
    365
    3
    Indeed it is, but with the weak minded it is very easy and the majority of people on this planet are weak minded; a pure fact.

    One thing I've come across is to conclude that we make our own history/facts, i.e., if we were to have done something different in the past, our history would have been different today. "Randomness" of chronological events is somehow determined by three main things. Our thinking, our feeling and finally nature itself, IOW, brain, heart and how we adapt to the physical world.

    I still have more to say, but I'll stop here for the time being and see how others will respond and where it goes. This could be very interesting.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
  11. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    BoyntonStu:

    You have not answered my questions.

    Do you want to discuss history or argue religion?

    Are you truly interested in knowing the answers to these questions? Or are you posting them simply to argue about religion?
     
  12. StayatHomeElectronics

    Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2008
    864
    40
    Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. That is certainly non-biblical.
     
  13. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0

    I thank you for your thoughtful post.

    A high level discussion of ideas without ad hominem attacks could prove to be very enlightening.

    If you would like another example of mass brain washing; look into the factual evidence about what Christopher Columbus introduced to the Western Hemisphere; namely slavery and genocide.

    The masses celebrate Columbus Day and have no idea what kind of an evil person he was.

    Martin Luther's book "The Jews and their Lies" should be required reading.

    Do you know anyone who is familiar with his infamous book?

    It's on the net.re

    http://tinyurl.com/9ddrs

    Do you have a strong stomach?

    BoyntonStu
     
  14. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,764
    2,534
    I'm not going to claim the Bible is the absolute truth, when it is obvious it has historical flaws. There is a name for when you start throwing out evidence you don't like, bias. Once you start down that path you can pretty much ignore whatever you don't like. Evidence has to be put into context, true enough, but you can't ignore it because it may conflict with personal beliefs.

    For all it's historical flaws the Bible does pin down some dates during that time frame, which correlate to other historical evidence and events. Given that the only people to whom being slaves would seem important is the Israelites it isn't too surprising it isn't mentioned much. If I casually write about an appliance, such as a toaster, it's not very likely I'll mention the brand name.

    I had to edit this post on the fly extensively to cull out the religious aspect, it was a lot harder than I expected. From here I'll sit back and watch the fray.
     
  15. Nanophotonics

    Active Member

    Apr 2, 2009
    365
    3
    Yes it is, and FYI, there is a whole chapter on Mary in the koran.

    Thanks.
     
  16. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0
    "there is a whole chapter on Mary in the koran. "

    Are the writings in the Koran factually accurate?

    Is the Koran a historical document?

    The book of Mormon?

    The NT mentions Jesus and Mary extensively.

    It was written about 3 generations (70 years) after the supposed events.

    None of thje above were/are historical documents.

    The writings about Socrates and Cicero are historical and contemporary.


    I do not wish to discuss religion and/or belief.

    BoyntonStu
     
  17. Nanophotonics

    Active Member

    Apr 2, 2009
    365
    3
    Well I don't really know how the Koran got so much information about Jesus and Mary. It is also known that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Jesus, well, nobody here can prove that as well, simply because we don't have any eyes-witness. I think that one cannot prove the existence of God as such and neither can one disprove it. It's a "perfect" concept. Each time something goes wrong, religious people find a way of explaining it by claiming that it's somehow the will of God or destiny, etc.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
  18. StayatHomeElectronics

    Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2008
    864
    40
    Can you explain to me what a historical document is and how it is verified to be absolutely correct?
     
  19. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0

    Excellent question.

    I do not know a single fact 100 years old that is absolutely correct, or for that matter, more recent events.

    I have no way of knowing who, what , where, where, and how with 100% accuracy.

    Data can be statistically valid and it is based on how many witnessed or measured, how good were their eyes, brains, and imaginations. who recorded it, was it translated accurately, etc.

    Do you remember the eyewitness drawings of sea monsters made 200 years ago? Were they absolutely correct?

    We must have an abundance of data to be assured that what was described at the time it supposedly happened.

    Look at similar data in the same era that you are interested in researching.

    Compare the history of Cicero to Jesus:


    Early life

    Cicero was born in 106 BC in Arpinum, a hill town 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of Rome. So, although a great master of Latin rhetoric and composition, Cicero was not "Roman" in the traditional sense, and was quite self-conscious of this for his entire life.
    During this period in Roman history, if one was to be considered "cultured", it was necessary to be able to speak both Latin and Greek. The Roman upper class often preferred Greek to Latin in private correspondence, recognizing its more refined and precise expressions, and its greater subtlety and nuance, in part due to the greater range of Greek abstract nouns. Cicero, like most of his contemporaries, was therefore educated in the teachings of the ancient Greek philosophers, poets and historians. The most prominent teachers of oratory of that time were themselves Greek.[6] Cicero used his knowledge of Greek to translate many of the theoretical concepts of Greek philosophy into Latin, thus translating Greek philosophical works for a larger audience. It was precisely his broad education that tied him to the traditional Roman elite.[7]
    Cicero's father was a well-to-do equestrian (knight) with good connections in Rome. Though he was a semi-invalid who could not enter public life, he compensated for this by studying extensively. Although little is known about Cicero's mother, Helvia, it was common for the wives of important Roman citizens to be responsible for the management of the household. Cicero's brother Quintus wrote in a letter that she was a thrifty housewife.[8]
    Cicero's cognomen, personal surname, is Latin for chickpea. Romans often chose down-to-earth personal surnames. Plutarch explains that the name was originally given to one of Cicero's ancestors who had a cleft in the tip of his nose resembling a chickpea. Plutarch adds that Cicero was urged to change this deprecatory name when he entered politics, but refused, saying that he would make Cicero more glorious than Scaurus ("Swollen-ankled") and Catulus ("Puppy").[9]
    According to Plutarch, Cicero was an extremely talented student, whose learning attracted attention from all over Rome,[10] affording him the opportunity to study Roman law under Quintus Mucius Scaevola.[11] Cicero's fellow students were Gaius Marius Minor, Servius Sulpicius Rufus (who became a famous lawyer, one of the few whom Cicero considered superior to himself in legal matters), and Titus Pomponius. The latter two became Cicero's friends for life, and Pomponius (who later received the cognomen "Atticus" for his philhellenism) would become Cicero's longtime chief emotional support and adviser.
    In the late 90's and early 80's BC Cicero fell in love with philosophy, which was to have a great role in his life. He would eventually introduce Greek philosophy to the Romans and create a philosophical vocabulary for it in Latin. In 87 BC, Philo of Larissa, the head of the Academy that was founded by Plato in Athens about 300 years earlier, arrived in Rome. Cicero, "inspired by an extraordinary zeal for philosophy",[12] sat enthusiastically at his feet and absorbed Plato's philosophy, even calling Plato his god. He admired especially Plato's moral and political seriousness, but he also respected his breadth of imagination. Cicero nonetheless rejected Plato's theory of Ideas.


    continued...
     
  20. BoyntonStu

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Apr 18, 2009
    52
    0
    Family

    Cicero married Terentia probably at the age of 27, in 79 BC. According to the upper class mores of the day it was a marriage of convenience, but endured harmoniously for some 30 years. Terentia's family was wealthy, probably the plebeian noble house of Terenti Varrones, thus meeting the needs of Cicero's political ambitions in both economic and social terms. She had a uterine sister (or perhaps first cousin) named Fabia, who as a child had become a Vestal Virgin – a very great honour. Terentia was a strong-willed woman and (citing Plutarch) "she took more interest in her husband's political career than she allowed him to take in household affairs".[13] She was a pious and probably a rather down-to-earth person.
    In the 40s Cicero's letters to Terentia became shorter and colder. He complained to his friends that Terentia had betrayed him but did not specify in which sense. Perhaps the marriage simply could not outlast the strain of the political upheaval in Rome, Cicero's involvement in it, and various other disputes between the two. The divorce appears to have taken place in 45 BC. In late 46 BC Cicero married a young girl, Publilia, who had been his ward. It is thought that Cicero needed her money, particularly after having to repay the dowry of Terentia, who came from a wealthy family.[14] This marriage did not last long.
    Although his marriage to Terentia was one of convenience, it is commonly known that Cicero held great love for his daughter Tullia.[15] When she suddenly became ill in February 45 BC and died after having seemingly recovered from giving birth to a son in January, Cicero was stunned. "I have lost the one thing that bound me to life" he wrote to Atticus.[16] Atticus told him to come for a visit during the first weeks of his bereavement, so that he could comfort him when his pain was at its greatest. In Atticus' large library, Cicero read everything that the Greek philosophers had written about overcoming grief, "but my sorrow defeats all consolation."[17] Caesar and Brutus as well as Servius Sulpicius Rufus sent him letters of condolence.[18][19]
    Cicero hoped that his son Marcus would become a philosopher like him, but Marcus himself wished for a military career. He joined the army of Pompey in 49 BC and after Pompey's defeat at Pharsalus 48 BC, he was pardoned by Caesar. Cicero sent him to Athens to study as a disciple of the peripatetic philosopher Kratippos in 48 BC, but he used this absence from "his father's vigilant eye" to "eat, drink and be merry."[20] After Cicero's murder he joined the army of the Liberatores but was later pardoned by Augustus. Augustus' bad conscience for having put Cicero on the proscription list during the Second Triumvirate led him to aid considerably Marcus Minor's career. He became an augur, and was nominated consul in 30 BC together with Augustus, and later appointed proconsul of Syria and the province of Asia.[21]
    [edit] Works

    Main article: Writings of Marcus Tullius Cicero
    Cicero was declared a “righteous pagan” by the early Catholic Church, and therefore many of his works were deemed worthy of preservation. Saint Augustine and others quoted liberally from his works “On The Republic” and “On The Laws,” and it is due to this that we are able to recreate much of the work from the surviving fragments. Cicero also articulated an early, abstract conceptualization of rights, based on ancient law and custom. Of Cicero's books, six on rhetoric have survived, as well as parts of eight on philosophy. Of his speeches, eighty-eight were recorded, but only fifty-eight survive.


    What data do you have about Jesus?


    BoyntonStu

    P.S. why was the name of this thread changed?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
Loading...