Simple switching problem; complicated for me!)

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by jjj, Feb 25, 2007.

  1. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
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    Dear Electronics Experts,

    I have got two groups of 3 x 4066 (QuadSW) of which I need to select one at a time via two pushbuttons. How to do that?

    Since it only switches small 5V currents, I was thinking to just power only the group of IC's (pin 14) via the two pushbutton switches, because only one of the twelve (from 3 IC's) gates of each group will/should be on at a time and the moment one group gets powered and then activate the desired switch. Activation of this switch needs to be only momentarily (a fraction of a second or so to initiate a MIDI software setting).

    So, maybe in this case powering the IC's via the footswitch might be the simplest (non-professional ) solution? It's like turning on the TV via inserting the plug into a power point.
    If you know of a better solution could you please draw a simple circuit for it of how it connects to 4066 so, that I can follow your advice. I'm good at soldering according to a schematic.
    Albeit the scenario looks pretty basic, it turns out to be complicated (for me at least).

    ----------------------
    In case you want to know for what it is : It's for a footswitch controlling the the lowest octave of my (D20) Roland Synth to play/control the 'Live-Styler' accompaniment via a circle of five (accordion button) layout. On the bottom of my page http://www.live-styler.de/home/?Ente...ohannes_Drinda
    is a link to a my JANKO keyboard project, which I build from wood... Some members in this forum might find it as exiting as I do?
    Kind Regards from jjj in Chile
     
  2. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
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    hi jjj,

    i'd really like to help u, 'cause it seems to me it'd be alot simpler if we'got the whole idea.
    that's the problem. please describe the purpose u wish to accomplish more detailed, i'm sure gonna help u.

    thx!
     
  3. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    If I understand correctly, you want to decode the two switches to select 1 of three chips to power. Something like a 74139 might work, if the outputs controlled PNP drivers for the 4066 chips.
     
  4. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Aren't you nice, rwmoekoe and thingmaker3

    See I'm a 65 year young man and I guess studying more electronics isn't on anymore... The problem is actually pretty basic for electronics experts.
    I try to keep the musical details out of it and just focus on the problem:
    I have got two groups of 3 x 4066 (QuadSW) of which I need to select one group at a time via two pushbuttons.
    Only 5V (low currents) switching is involved and only one of the twelve gates (from three IC's) of each group should be on at a time (for a fraction of a second). [​IMG]
    My idea is to switch the 5V via one pushbuttons (of two in a footswitch) for each group to pins 1,3,8,10. Only the chosen 4066 switch will then be on, even though all 12 (4066) IC's switches (from one group) will be powered at the same time,(but non-of the other gates).
    Could you please check if I'm 'ticking' right? I forgot to mention that only one of the 12 gates in each group at a time receives 5V from an accordion bass button/ switch and that's when I press the footswitch to obtain the desired output to control Live-Styler software via a pentasonic layout (which is the 120 button accordion bass part).

    It's the same as pressing 2 piano keys of a Synth (in the lowest octave at the same time) briefly. If, e.g. the piano key C and A# is pressed (A# the nearest black key to the left from C in the lowest octave, used only for Live-Styler) to switch Live-Styler accompaniment to minor chords).
    To switch to a C-7th chord the nearest white key (B) needs to be activated, etc. That can be quite complicated and that's why I chose to do it via a circle of quints (accordion button) accompaniment. Together with my Janko keyboard I'll have the easiest to learn & play MIDI instrument. If you are musically creative... here's the chance to make it happen for you, too!
    Kind Regards, jjj in Chile
     
  5. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    I misunderstood.

    Forgive me if I misunderstand again... but here goes. I think you want to enable one group of 3 chips with one switch in your foot-pedal - and another group of three chips with the other switch in your foot-pedal. If this is so, I suggest tying pin 14 of all 4066 chips to +5V and otherwise proceeding as in your diagram. The chips will all be ready and stabilised if they have Vdd on already.

    A better option might be to tie the +5V from foot pedals to pins 5, 6, 13, and 12 (control lines) and feed your signals through pins 1, 3, 8, and 10. I'm still fuzzy on what those input signals might be - but it looks like 5V to represent different chords or notes. (My music is about at the level of your electronics... I can beat on a drum well enough.)
     
  6. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
    0
    jjj, you inspire me, thx. 65 i think is a great age for learning electronics. really.

    i agree with thingmaker3, the 4066's control lines should better be the control line (to the foot switch), while the vdd should always be on, in case there was 5v from the output (keeping the 4066 as analog switches). The pulldown resistor 47k should complement the footswitch.
    it's the pic.1 below.

    If you can be sure that the current sinking / sourcing of the input where this gate's outputs are connected to are low enough (say <1ma, or if they use cmos input, it'll do), maybe you would prefer the schematic in pic.2. More component count but simpler. Up to you :).
    Please notice the footswitch, it'll be connected to the normally closed lead though.

    yours,
    robert
     
  7. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Thx thingmaker3 and rwmoekoe ,
    Sorry about the confusion, it's my fault, for I still didn't give enough info.:p

    I think you want to enable one group of 3 chips with one switch in your foot-pedal - and another group of three chips with the other switch in your foot-pedal.
    That's right!
    I suggest tying pin 14 of all 4066 chips to +5V and otherwise proceeding as in your diagram. The chips will all be ready and stabilised if they have Vdd on already. Yes, I agree that they should be powered at all times.

    A better option might be to tie the +5V from foot pedals to pins 5, 6, 13 and 12 (control lines). That's impossible, because the gates are independently driven, depending on which accordion bass button I press.

    ...and feed your signals through pins 1, 3, 8, and 10. I'm still fuzzy on what those input signals might be - but it looks like 5V to represent different chords or notes.
    Pins 1,3,8,12,13 are merely feeding 5V to the control line of other accordion bass buttons, because as mentioned two keys have to be momentarily on to switch Live-Styler software to either minor or 7th chord accompaniment.
    I thought to add a bit more info on where to input comes from and where the output goes to:
    [​IMG]

    That should work -- or not? Or is the following idea far superior? I think the best might be to connect every pin normally and instead 'block' the gates of each group via a foot PB switch.
    (This switch has got NO and NC pins; I'll use the latter)
    To find out the minimum current necessary to bias a gate I connect two pots to a gate (one in series; the other to earth) and then use fixed resistors.
    Thus, the gate will only receive 5V when the footswitch PB switches to NO (normally off) or the blockage resistor R2 is effectively out of business/ cricuit, like pictured here:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
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    W R O N G !!!

    That works only with one gate in of 12 of one group.
    I made a test with one 4066 switch with the 100K pulldown resistor and only R1 (47K). Thus, the footswitch was directly on eart, without R2 and it worked perfectly! Sadly, it won't work whith all 12 switches (of one group) via one footswitch.
    I cannot connect all 12 gates of each group onto earth. That's O.K. when I don't need to use the footswitch, but when I switch over (or remove the blockage) the 12 gates (of one group) are with each other connected and they should be individual. So, now I'm back to square one! Help! :(
     
  9. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
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    jjj, please refer to the pic i posted earlier, the inputs gate#1, #2 and so on, are for the gates, right? That is, gate C, gate c#, goes like that. These pins are 1, 3, 8, and 10.
    As for the outputs, you can map them as they should be (gate d# to Out c#, like that).
    Meanwhile, all of the control lines (those are 13, 5, 6, 12) are tied together and go to the foot switch.
    I'm sure you will see this thing much easier if you've tried understand this.

    friendly,
    robert
     
  10. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
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    Thank you Robert,

    Yes Robert you are right! Mea culpa! I confused the issue, because I somehow mistook the in/outputs.
    The gate is not the input of a 4066 switch! 1,3,8 & 10 are the inputs!
    That opens a totally knew oportunity... Now I have to rethink my plan. Gee, I have been blind! :)
    I have been out of my electronics hobby for some years and that's why I have to catch up again.
    Here's a relay version of what I try to do. I think that'll make it much clearer:
    [​IMG]
    URL=http://imageshack.us]http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/11/bbbpg6.jpg
    With relays I can tie all earth side pins of the (e.g. Minor group) coils together. Can I do the same with 4066 switches?
     
  11. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
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    jjj, great! you see? you can do it.

    you can do the 4066 just the same.

    hint:
    in the schematic i drew, notice the boxes i indicate as switches, to the top right of each boxes are these:
    1/4 4066 #1 (this, i meant the 1st of the 4 switches in the 4066 #1)
    2/4 4066 #1 (this, i meant the 2nd of the 4 switches in the 4066 #1)
    this goes on... until the last 4066 (there are 3 of them in one group right?)
    4/4 4066 #3 (this, i meant the 4th of the 4 switches in the 4066 #3)

    this is just a drawing for one group. the exact same thing goes for the second one.

    the lead with arrows over each boxes are meant to be the control leads of each individual switches.
    they're tied together as one, for the group of 3 4066 (12 switches).
    a control lead doesn't have direct connection to the switch it's supposed to control. it's cmos remember?
    that way, we can tie them together, while each individual switches can pass their own signals unharmed. only connected, or disconnected.

    the schematic in pic.2, you can forget about it :).
    it's just a version that uses only resistors and diodes. does the same though.

    you still have to map the pins though, 'cause they're of your own choice.
    it's for the sake of simplicity when you would build it.

    have fun, jjj...

    regards,
    robert
     
  12. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
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    Thx Robert,
    I had many sleepless nights until you came along and gave me that 'devine kick in the tabernacle', I needed so badly! Somehow I got caught up in mistaking the gate for input. Crazy! But the idea of drawing a relay driven circuit helps to clarify what I want and last not least, helped me to 'electronically orientate'. Going back to basics helps in such cases.
    Yesterday I drew this new plan and a wiring chart to it. 'an' (German) means 'on' in English. (I still mixing Ger with Eng, even after 33 years Aussi nationality. :) )
    [​IMG]
    I already soldered the 6 IC’s up the wrong way. Now I have to unsolder the lot and rewire it, but I’m used to… Murphy's laws. The 4066B are buffered and can stand this torture. I just glued the IC’s upside down and wrap the pins and diodes with hair-thin polyurethane isolated copper wire. Then I solder them. It works every time.
    You should see the wired up 6 blocks dbl. rows of diodes, where all the chords are wired up. What a mess, but works! I always create a wiring plan first and dbl. check every move. Great ‘test for oldies’ if they are still in tune with reality! :)

    How to reward you for your 'helpful kick'? It's easier if you like good music. Because my ingenious spirit helped me to home-build the easiest to learn and play MIDI instrument of them all. Please visit my page in Live-Styler: http://www.live-styler.de/home/?Ente...ohannes_Drinda I helped the owner translate his manual and website from Ger to Eng and he gave me a free copy of his software. (My jjj name is Johannes K. Drinda). On the bottom of that page you 'might' enjoy my Demo. (Not too sure... because you live a different culture.) Further down that page I offer a PDF on how to build your own Janko keyboard. That's where my 120-button accordion bass will be added. Any other way those 'Yamaha-Styles' are not easy to play together with Janko Kbd. layout. Regards, jjj
     
  13. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Hi Robert,

    My joy was short-lived... I desoldered the old circuit and rebuilt this one:
    [​IMG]

    When I press the acordion button and then the (Minor) footSW all gates are activated and I get a chorus of all 12 sounds! Does it mean all 6 IC's are 'kaput' or is there leakage?

    What to do? Maybe I have to use opto-couplers or reed relays? I'm left with is this basic diagram with relays:
    http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/11/bbbpg6.jpg
    Note: Here's only shown one connection; that of the C key. Each group (Minor & 7th) has 12 different connections to/ adding another key.
    I guess it's less complicated to just use a bank of 12 electro/mechanical switches.
    All I want is that when I press an accordion button (one at a time) and momentarily the footSW, another, specific accordion button/key will be activated (to activate that Live-Styler software). Maybe there's a much simpler way?
     
  14. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
    0
    jjj, sorry i haven't been online for awhile, and unreachable to you.
    been out of town where there's no internet connection in the house...
    i'll get back to you soon!

    yours,
    robert
     
  15. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Hi rwmoekoe; hi Robert,

    For some reasons I didn't take the gate's pull-down resistor (47- 100K) serious.... I had all Bass and Terz button working via 4066. Only after I ripped the whole circuit out and started to replace them with ReedSW, I realized and that all the 'weird' 4066 problems came from allowing to float their gates.
    At first I thought of using Reed SW, yet their coils need about 400mA at 15V each; i.e. a major bass played together with a 7th chord (10 active switches) would require 4A!! Forget it!
    Jeez, life isn't meant to be easy... but I'm tough like monkey leather! Now it's back to 4066 switches, but this time with 47K on each gate. How about using opto-couplers? They only need to power LEDs or am I wrong? How to do the lot with opto-couplers?

    Each Roland keys has to have 2 switches, like this for the lowest key C:

    A / .---->l--- 8
    B / .---->l--- 8

    This means A and B go via a separate switches and a diode to 8. C#-key is: A & B to 7; D-key is: A & B to 6, etc. That's how I connected the key IC's 4066. Here I controlled the gates via 5V from the accordion button switches and it worked.
    Only with the footSW I need to control the gates via one SW for each (Minor & 7th).
    Maybe I should give it another go with 4066 switches. I got plenty of them and time, too. Unless of course opto-couplers work even better!?

    Your help will benefit others as well. I'll complement my project and pay you homage in my project...
    http://www.live-styler.de/home/Janko Project.pdf
    ...by mentioning your name and a link to this forum. In any case I'll let you know how I go and and successfully finish my project.
    Kind Regards, jjj in Chile
     
  16. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
    0
    Hi jjj, :)

    I'm still out of town, and managed to get to the local internet cafe.
    I've run through your story and schematic.
    You sure can do it, 'cause I can see that you have perseverance. That's what inpires me. Thankyou! :)

    I'm sorry that i didn't make it clear about the circuits i drew.
    There I drew 2 different circuits, one of which you can use, depending on which suits you better.
    The circuit in pic.1: it definitely is supposed to work under any characteristics of the output and input stage of the equipments connected to it.
    The circuit in pic.2: it's supposed to work only if the output stage of the accordion fed to it is strong enough (say, capable of driving 10mA or more, while pertaining the output at >4.5v), and the input stage of the keyboard is high in impedance (say, >10kohms).

    But if you don't mind, let's just consentrate on the circuit in pic.1 using 4066.
    In the latest circuits you've drawn, just omit the diodes. The connections are ok. Keep using the pulldown resistor in each footswitch.

    That's right.

    Wow, yes that's right.

    Sure you're tough! :)

    The 4066s are ok. Opto couplers work like transistors, only they have insulations and very low gains. The working circuit will be much more complicated. If we need the insulation, we'll need this kind of circuit though.
    We don't need insulation. We just need to make sure the GROUND of all three equipments (the accordion, this footswitch control interface, and the keyboard synthesizer) are connected as one.

    That's very kind of you... :) many many thanks... but you are capable by yourself. We're only digging it out...

    Jjj, please be patient when it takes too long for me to answer. It's because I'm still out of town, and internet connection is a bit hard here
    I will answer.

    Friendly,
    Robert
     
  17. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Hi Robert,
    Nice to hear from you. I'm like you... love to help people in need. I have done the same in philosophical forums and performing my music. I learnt a bit of English whilst writing philosophical books in Australia. I speak German, French and Spanish, too. My first wife was actually French... so, it's true that 'I learnt my French in bed' :) What a pity that she was so money hungry... my second wife suffered from endogenic depression and I went though hell and the third time I was 'lucky'! All what's left is to wish you luck the first time!
    My best friend in Australia was/is Robert Rogalinski from Poland. I seem to meet up with the world's 'nicest Roberts'! By the way, what do you think of my musical twitter DEMO? http://www.live-styler.de/home/?Entertainers:Johannes_Drinda It mightn't be your cup of tea, all depends with what music you grew up... I guess. Now back to work:

    You wrote: In the latest circuits you've drawn, just omit the diodes.
    I didn't inform you about the connections. The footSW circuit I only shows C-Minor and C-7th. There are 11 more of it in an octave. Here are the details:
    Minor-footSW: C,c# & B connects to a#// D and d# connects to c#// E,F & f#...to d#// G & g#... to f#// A... to g#//
    7th-footSW: C to B// c# & D...to C// d# & E... to d#// F... to E// f# & G... to F// g# & A... to G// a# & B...to A//
    As you see I need the diodes or else when I press accordion button C and Minor-footSW: C, a# and c# will be activated, instead of only a#...or am I wrong?
    Now you got almost all details. The wildest thing I had to do was to connect all chords to diode blocks of 13 diodes each. That means 13 x 12 diodes!
    All chords have 3 keys (except 7th-chords have 4).
    The accordion's 120 button switches are: 20 buttons for Terz bass// 20 buttons for Major bass// 20 buttons for Major chords// 20 buttons for Minor chords// 20 buttons for 7th chords// and 20 buttons for Diminished chords//
    Basically I intent to connect the chords to 4066 switches as I did with the bass buttons. Here's more info about chords and bass connections to 4066. (Beside, cis means c# //dis means d#//fis means f#//gis means g# //and ais means a#// )
    If there's still something unclear, please let me know. I want you to have an overview of my project's electronics. Regards, jjj
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
    0
    Hi john, sorry it's been quite long... But I know you're a kind man :) that you'll forgive me, lol... Anyway, i apologize...
    I've gone through the link about Johannes Drinda. Your life is dinamic, it's an inspiration.

    It's interesting to me. Please share alittle about your major philosophy in life... or perhaps we should talk about this in other relevant forum?

    Wow... there's so much i wanna hear from your experiences... you sure know about things we 'greener' should know about. Especially about marriage :)

    Listened to the wma of yours, it's unique your capabilities.. 1 in a million?

    don't worry, as long as you only press the minor fs and the C (not D at the same time), only a# will be on.
    The switches (4066's) only pass through what was fed to its lead, so if the D accordion button isn't pressed, its being not pressed will be passed through to c#, and c# remains off.

    Please inform me again on the progress

    Friendly,
    robert
     
  19. jjj

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    104
    0
    Hi Robert,

    Just back from one week’s holiday in La Serena & Coquimbo (Chile), meeting up with chores of American passengers from the cruise liner ‘Golden Princess’ visiting our shores.

    Here’s ‘a little’ gem especially for you: To make it to true contentment you’ll need to fulfil three pre-conditions >>>
    1) gain materialistic security;
    2) discover, develop and regularly, adequately fulfil your mental, emotional and physical ‘true needs’ (or genetic default values) incl. your unique abilities and/ or talents;
    3) last, not least… successfully search & find your ideal partner.

    True, finding that ideal partner is pain in the proverbial. I’m planing to write a book on this subject. Most young people resent philosophical advice from elders. That’s where you inspire me, for you seem to compare/ transfer your electronics acquisition to wisdom acquisition …you aren’t wrong there! Theoretically you could marry any partner, but practically you should/ are compelled to marry only the ‘logically correct partner’. (This term is the hard bit; requiring pages of explanations & examples.) Just like an electronic circuit has to contain its correct components and values or it simply won’t work! Finding that ideal partner via Internet chats is feasible, provided you apply foresight and life-experiences. Sadly, those resenting advice have to earn it the ‘hard way’ by themselves. :(

    My ancestors are to blame/ earned it! I merely discovered & developed what they genetically transferred to me to secure my innermost contentment.

    According to the connection table for Minor-footSW, accordion buttons C, c# and B connects to a#
    I.e., if I don’t channel the voltages from C, c# and B via diodes then all the 4 keys will be activated when I press either C, c# or B accordion button, because they are all directly connected. Only diodes are able to separate their connections... if I'm not wrong, again? :) Regards, jjj
     
  20. rwmoekoe

    Active Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    172
    0
    :) no wonder you didn't show up.

    wow, i couldn't agree w/ you more

    tell me when you do

    does this mean you've found your 'logically correct partner'? :D

    I see it now. You're right. The diodes you use should be there. If not, when you push the footSW and press C, all C, c# and B will be equally pressed, and so will their accompaniments. I can imagine the sound.. lol.

    I wanna hear the progress, john. Please inform me on this will you?

    Regards,
    Robert
     
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