sewer ?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Mathematics!, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Is the sewer eventually cement after the pvc based pipes.
    And are the cement pipes usually just pushed together to connect

    like
    https://www.google.com/search?q=pipe+laying+tools&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4PM9U4qdBPDQsQSX04DIDg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1024&bih=569#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=nz_uinehcWR2cM%253A%3BBZu4s8NMM4ZM4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.liebherr.com%252FcatXmedia%252Fem%252FThumbnails%252FRVG1_9850-0_W300.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.liebherr.com%252FEM%252Fen-GB%252Fregion-US%252Fproducts_em.wfw%252Fid-14215-0%252Fmeasure-metric%3B300%3B200

    Or do you need bolts . I would assume the answer is yes.


    Also couldn't one just pour cement to make it so joining cement pipe is not necessary. Or maybe there is some reason of wasted molding material?

    Is it normally house -- pvc sewer pipes ---- cement sewer pipes ---- back to the waste management company

    Or is there ever different pipes in the sew infrastructure system now a days. ( I know different types of metals back in the day like iron/steel but I would imagine PVC and cement is the majority now a days could be wrong)

    Seems from what I read clay , concrete , cast iron ,... but now most are going completely to PVC / ABS based I can kind of see this being cheaper ,easier install ,...etc

    curious if they install them the same way as house hold smaller versions of the pipes when it comes to PVC/ABS
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  2. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    Odd questions for an electronic forum.
    But the pipes are usually caulked at the joins, what material they use currently I have no idea.
    Max.
     
  3. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    well apparently when you are doing iron pipe you bolt them normally with a gasket (couple other methods but no welding/soldering them) (example fire sprinkler system ...)

    for the steel pipe these can either be welded/brazed , thread on/bolt on , or clamp down. Though normally welded or thread on.

    For the plastics
    polyvinyl chloride (PVC/uPVC) , polypropylene, polyethylene
    These normally can be done alot of ways crimp on , glued/primer , clamp down...etc

    For copper these are normally soldered though they have applications where non-solder methods are better and they uses compression based/crimp down tools.

    For the cement sewer pipes I realized some times they are just cast iron coated with cement so the iron won't rot. But Makes since that when join you would uses some adhesive to seal the gaps. Sort of like when sealing a roofs flashing (sheet metal) from water leaks.

    Though with cement one could incase all types of these pipes to strength the amount of time in repairing the total pipe system.

    Question 1
    How often do you need to place a pump on the sewer lines is it ever mile more less is there some sort of formula to give a rough approximation?

    Question 2
    Same question as 1 but for the clean water supply lines where / when / how far would one lay pipe before a pump to increase pressure in the pipe and a meter for monitoring usually be installed.

    The title for this thread should be changed to water and sewer since this post really covers all the types of piping for each and how to join them. Steel seem to me the most challenging since I have done aspects of all the others at one time or another as well as most of the different techniques for each but never welded yet. On a large scale I would imagine if you can join small pipe then the joining techniques for the bigger pipes don't change all that much other then the fact you need bigger equipment to move them and bigger tools to install them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  4. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Or wait for the water supply pressure question is it just the joining of smaller pipes to larger pipes that determines the pressure increase and there is no real need for a pump in between.

    My thought is if the pump at the company pumps a certain force and the pipe it pumps it into is of certain diameter then just varying the connecting pipe down the line to smaller and smaller diameters will give you the desired pressure you need.

    P= F/A simple enough but maybe the A will eventually become practicely to small at some point and the force will need to be amplified thru a pump. Maybe that is the issue?

    I see https://www.google.com/search?q=water+pump&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_xM-U92kJ8fNsQTQ-oFQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1024&bih=569#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=ETCoQRtu7rhNpM%253A%3B_7_dw_8OcAesdM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fasc-ind.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2010%252F10%252FPUMP-w-raw-mat-callouts.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fasc-ind.com%252Ftechnical-assistance%252Ftechnical-resources%252Fhelpful-articles-tips%252Fwater-pump-components%252F%3B1800%3B1415

    Seems like if you ever did have to install a water pump there are similar to a water pump installed on a car or boat i.e impeller based. Just larger versions. Makes since you would uses a vortex based pump in a water based system over an electric motor one since there is no need for electricity / more safe down the roads...
    Maybe these are in the water pump stations so I guess I have seen those before but don't know how far from the main supply company pump the pump stations are put is it just when the water needs to be increase pressure wise they install a pump station.

    Would be great if there was some infrastructure for the water system like there is for the electrical system on the net (i.e generator --- transmission lines --- substations ---transmission/distribution grids --- transformer ---houses...etc)
    Seems like it would be the equivalent for water just with the generator being the main pump , and the substations = water pump stations , circuit breaker/switches/fuses = on/off valves / shut off valves
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  5. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
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    Your statements about pipe sizes to control pressure is like saying you can use different diameters of wire to control the voltage in a circuit - wrong.

    If there is no flow, there is no pressure drop along the length of a pipe or anywhere in the system. Each length of pipe contributes to resistance to flow, just like the wire (or a resistor) does in a circuit.

    If you are just using pipe size differences, you are dividing the input pressure, you are not regulating pressure. Similar to the difference between a voltage regulator and a voltage divider.
     
  6. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Yes , now I see which is why you need the pump stations for both sewer (lift) and water systems.

    But now I am wondering is there a certain process of figuring out where the pump stations should go how far from where. I would imagine this is based on how much places it has to support and how far away from each places.

    Also is there a difference between pump stations interms of like the electrical infrastructure is i.e like transmission grid to distribution maybe if there was something equivalent for water the pump stations for the distribution would be some what standard to calculate. But this is all depended of the design of the system as a whole by the engineer designing it.

    Wondering how much the water supply companies cover , like how many water companies are needed to support the US needs . i.e like how many many company stations (equivalent to main generators in electricity)
    If it is anything like electrical you are probably going to have a couple hundred main suppliers to cover the US. California being probably the largest different companies need 20 or so ish if it is anything like electrical.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  7. GopherT

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    Nov 23, 2012
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    Estimating is an important skill for an engineer and "a couple hundred" was a real good guess. You weren't too far off. According to the EPA, the real number is about 155,000.

    http://water.epa.gov/infrastructure/drinkingwater/pws/factoids.cfm
     
  8. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Yes but how many different companies own all of those systems . (sort of speak)
    I would imagine some companies own more then 1 of those water system. Or does all the companies sort of work for the state anyway.
     
  9. GopherT

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    Most are operated by cities, not companies. Drive through rural America and look at the water towers in each little town. Usually separate systems.

    There are some regional water suppliers (city of Detroit water provides most of SE Michigan), and Two different water 'wholesale' companies provide towns with water in the Pittsburgh area.

    What is your goal? Why is this important to know?
     
  10. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    My goal was to try at a high level to understand the US water piping systems as a whole. Like how many separate systems , where they supply to , how much area they cover, where the pipes go (shape of infrastructure) ...etc Something like the equivalent of the picture of the internet cabling in the world i.e the transatlantic cabling lay out , major connections ,...etc.

    But maybe the water infrastructure is to disjoint to keep a high level of the US. And one would have to look at blue prints of distinct water systems one at a time when needed

    I would imagine somebody keeps track of all the blueprints or saves maps of each water system so if trouble shooting is need, reinstalling , or customizing the system on has a means of understanding the infrastructure of existing water systems
     
  11. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    Around here we have the rural water program which is an attempt to bring city water to the people who live out in the country plus interconnect the nearby towns with each other so that when one is experiencing a shortage or surplus they can balance out with other parts of the system.

    Typical interconnect lines around here are plastic and can be between 8" and ~20" in diameter and each small town usually has at least two lines connecting it to the two or more nearest neighboring towns.
    Overall that gives the system a rather substantial grid of interconnected lines and storage capacity so at any one time a surprisingly large amount of water can be on the move.
     
  12. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    what about for the blue prints ?
    And is there a image on the Internet that show the water supply infrastructure and how it is interconnected at a high level.

    There must be some way to see all the major pump stations , water treatment/supply places , sewer pump stations , sewer treatment places , and the major interconnects to these components. For the US

    links would be great.
     
  13. GopherT

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    Water and gas line maps are no longer available for public browsing.
     
  14. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Darn wish I could have seen pictures


    Ok in the water/sewer system is it like the fuel systems /pipeline , and electric systems. Where there is a distinction between the transmission/transport wires/pipeline and the distribution wires/pipelines .

    Or is water and sewer systems only more just distribution with pump stations. I guess is there a distinction when it comes to the water and sewer pipelines
    I would imagine your pipelines for water and sewer are a lot shorter then fuel and electrical.

    If there is a distinction where the water and sewer pipelines are broken into transportation from distribution then
    Is there at least a map of the major transportation pipelines for water and sewer in the US (like a map of the US transportation water pipeline)
     
  15. shortbus

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 30, 2009
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    Water 'pump stations' don't feed direct to individual customers/houses. No pump could supply enough pressure/volume for that. The pump to supply towers, gravity and volume make the pressure to the customer.

    Depending on the area, most water supply is city or county owned. It isn't interconected like the electrical grid. In my area even the new water mains are cast iron not plastic. The pipe joints are spigot using a rubber gasket. No bolts or threads.
     
  16. MaxHeadRoom

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    Jul 18, 2013
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    Where I am the fresh water is fed from a fresh water lake, considered one of the best water supplies in N.A. it is fed by Aqueduct from the lake some 283km away and 294ft higher.
    Max.
     
  17. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    I get that they uses the gravity to make the pressure/force to supply the town. (i.e those big high balloon/cylinder tanks.

    But then why is there so many water pump stations I would imagine only one would be need at the place where you are pumping the water up into the supply balloon /cylinder . That is if you are correct.

    Then what is the point of all these pump stations not near by the many supply tank.

    I would imagine though even with gravity the farther out you go you may still need a water pump intermittent station
    But maybe it is only shut off valve stations. ( and at the point of to much pressure/force loss one creates another water cylinder tank / pump company)

    Confusing to thing we just supply customers with water by large tanks high above with a pump to restore tank. It seems on a large scale just a big version of a sump pump/electric well pump one would find in a house that gets its water from a well and sends it into a high above tank that uses gravity to get the water to the customers.

     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  18. GopherT

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    The small pumping stations in my community are for sewage, not pressurized water systems.
     
  19. tcmtech

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    Nov 4, 2013
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    Around here we have a number of underground reservoirs for the rural water systems that have boosting pumps on them but even then the stations with pumping systems are usually some 10 - 20 miles apart.


    Speaking of sewage lift stations many years ago I worked for a guy who did odd construction and service work in the area.

    One day he got a call that a local town had one of their primary lift station pumping systems quit because the main check valve blew out and flooded the whole lift station pit with raw sewage.

    He agreed to do the job for an outrageous $18,000 of which the valve rebuild was at best $1000 in parts and maybe another $500 in misc stuff to fix the damaged pump control systems that got flooded.

    Anyway he tells us He got the job and would pay both me and one other guy who worked for him $500 each (about 5 times what he normally paid us for a day) to do half a days work to clean out the lift station and fix everything and he would keep the other $15,000 for himself.

    At that point we told him to choke on poo and die! $5K each or he can do it himself if he wants the full $15K.
    Being a hypochondriac and clean freak he wouldn't go near raw sewage himself and had to back out of the contract. :D
     
  20. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    If you told him that upfront he could have worked that into his bid. Worst case scenario is you would have lost the bid.
     
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