Security in Orlando

Thread Starter

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
5,237
"Just to be clear I don't own a gun by choice nor inherit one" but, to add I do love guns and have no problem with someone legally possessing one and protecting their right bear arms.

Just out of curiosity? Does anyone know what happens to an individual who inherits a gun or guns from a family member? The instant that happens are they legally responsible to register the gun?


kv
Guns in Florida do not require "registration".

When you purchase a gun at a licensed dealer, it is my understanding (and I may not have full understanding!) that the dealer is required to keep the paperwork for a period of time (the S/N is traced back to him), after which he is to discard it. Transactions between family and friends require no paperwork whatsoever.
 

Thread Starter

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
5,237
Even justice Scalia didn't say that no regulation of guns was covered in the second amendment. He said that they would have to be decided in "future cases".

Direct Quote by Scalia,
"but the majority noted that, nonetheless, gun ownership was not an unlimited right, said Scalia, who wrote the opinion in that case."

“It will have to be decided in future cases what limitations upon the right to bear arms are permissible,” he added. “Some undoubtedly are.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...ations-decided-future-cases-article-1.1124408
Yes. What he said is, in effect, there are no limitations until we say otherwise. I'm not sure how happy I am about this.

Edit: Why? Because it further politicizes the court.
 

tracecom

Joined Apr 16, 2010
3,944
"Just to be clear I don't own a gun by choice nor inherit one" but, to add I do love guns and have no problem with someone legally possessing one and protecting their right bear arms.

Just out of curiosity? Does anyone know what happens to an individual who inherits a gun or guns from a family member? The instant that happens are they legally responsible to register the gun?


kv
There is no federal firearms registration program, and in most states, no state registration program. So, unless you live in a state that requires you to register firearms, the answer is "no."
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
"Just to be clear I don't own a gun by choice nor inherit one" but, to add I do love guns and have no problem with someone legally possessing one and protecting their right bear arms.

Just out of curiosity? Does anyone know what happens to an individual who inherits a gun or guns from a family member? The instant that happens are they legally responsible to register the gun?


kv
Gun registration is specifically outlawed at the federal and state level by the 1968 Firearm Owners Protection Act wherein, supposedly, records tying a firearm to its owner are not allowed to be maintained at any federal or state facility. Which is not to say that there are several databases that violate the law, but they are either pretty specific or pretty piecemeal.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
Guns in Florida do not require "registration".

When you purchase a gun at a licensed dealer, it is my understanding (and I may not have full understanding!) that the dealer is required to keep the paperwork for a period of time (the S/N is traced back to him), after which he is to discard it. Transactions between family and friends require no paperwork whatsoever.
The background check information is supposed to (by law) be discarded by the FBI within 24 hours. I don't know about the dealer's half of the paperwork for the background check. The record of sale is supposed to be maintained by the dealer, but increasingly this information is being turned over to the ATF and entered into their eTrace database, which I think violates both the spirit and the letter of FOPA. When a firearms involved in a crime is recovered, the idea is that the serial number can be used to start with the manufacturer and trace the weapon down to the first non-licensed purchaser of that weapon. There is no way (or is not supposed to be any way) of starting with a person's name or other identifying information and determine whether they own or have purchased any firearms. This provision was put in place specifically to make any attempt at gun confiscation by the government very difficult.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
I find it interesting that your not allowed to own a hand gun in D.C. I'm surprised they allow Shotguns and Rifles though.

kv
Oh, but we can see that making it illegal to own a handgun in D.C. (I don't know that that is outright illegal, but it's certainly close) has virtually eliminated crimes involving handguns and has made D.C. such a safe place to live.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
If I had to take a poll that long, my eyes would be glazing over well before I got to the end of it.

That's actually a problem with many surveys -- they are too long and the people answering them lose the necessary interest to think about the answers -- they just want it over.

I also didn't see anything that describes their methodology, in particular what the response rate was. I might have missed it.

Even if the poll is a perfectly accurate reflection of people's opinion, it does not necessarily indicated that those opinions are informed. Many opinions held by many people (well, pretty much everyone on at least some topics) reflect superficial knowledge of the topic, at best, and are often driven primarily by emotion.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
If I had to take a poll that long, my eyes would be glazing over well before I got to the end of it.

That's actually a problem with many surveys -- they are too long and the people answering them lose the necessary interest to think about the answers -- they just want it over.

I also didn't see anything that describes their methodology, in particular what the response rate was. I might have missed it.

Even if the poll is a perfectly accurate reflection of people's opinion, it does not necessarily indicated that those opinions are informed. Many opinions held by many people (well, pretty much everyone on at least some topics) reflect superficial knowledge of the topic, at best, and are often driven primarily by emotion.
That's the nice thing about Gallup - they are pretty good at it. In case you missed it many were the same poll taken in different years. It kind of indicates the public feeling over time. I've seen very little data here, so I think it's all opinion.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
That's the nice thing about Gallup - they are pretty good at it. In case you missed it many were the same poll taken in different years. It kind of indicates the public feeling over time. I've seen very little data here, so I think it's all opinion.
I don't know how good Gallup is at it. Note that Gallup has decided to stop doing the one poll whose accuracy can be objectively determined -- namely election "horse race" polls. The entire polling industry has increasingly been getting a black eye because their polls, even immediately prior to elections, often bear only a passing resemblance to the election results. So the answer (for Gallup, anyway) is to simply stop doing polls that people can compare to actual results. Instead they have chosen to focus on "issue polls", which are much harder to validate. If the poll has errors in it, those errors are still there in different years. Do the numbers vary from year to year because opinions change, or because the errors change. Of course it's both, but which one dominates?
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
The background check information is supposed to (by law) be discarded by the FBI within 24 hours. I don't know about the dealer's half of the paperwork for the background check. The record of sale is supposed to be maintained by the dealer, but increasingly this information is being turned over to the ATF and entered into their eTrace database, which I think violates both the spirit and the letter of FOPA. When a firearms involved in a crime is recovered, the idea is that the serial number can be used to start with the manufacturer and trace the weapon down to the first non-licensed purchaser of that weapon. There is no way (or is not supposed to be any way) of starting with a person's name or other identifying information and determine whether they own or have purchased any firearms. This provision was put in place specifically to make any attempt at gun confiscation by the government very difficult.
Right about the back round check info. But unless I miss read what you are saying, the dealer HAS to keep the form 4473 forever. This has to be put in his "bound book" sometimes called the acquisition and disposition book.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
Right about the back round check info. But unless I miss read what you are saying, the dealer HAS to keep the form 4473 forever. This has to be put in his "bound book" sometimes called the acquisition and disposition book.
That's my understanding -- the dealer is responsible for permanently maintaining the Form 4473. What I don't have much of a feel for is what happens to the 4473 when the dealer goes out of business -- neither what is supposed to happen nor what generally happens in practice. I know what I would have done had I set up the system (and I think that the dealer maintaining the 4473 is a reasonable compromise). I would have required a significant deposit be made at the time the FFL is granted and when the FFL is not renewed the dealer must provide ATF with the name and FFL# of another dealer whom they transferred all of the 4473s to and once that other dealer confirms that they received them then the original dealer gets their deposit back. That way the old dealer has a financial incentive to make the 4473s still traceable but the government still doesn't have the information needed to build a list of firearms owners.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
I don't know how good Gallup is at it. Note that Gallup has decided to stop doing the one poll whose accuracy can be objectively determined -- namely election "horse race" polls. The entire polling industry has increasingly been getting a black eye because their polls, even immediately prior to elections, often bear only a passing resemblance to the election results. So the answer (for Gallup, anyway) is to simply stop doing polls that people can compare to actual results. Instead they have chosen to focus on "issue polls", which are much harder to validate. If the poll has errors in it, those errors are still there in different years. Do the numbers vary from year to year because opinions change, or because the errors change. Of course it's both, but which one dominates?
There are a lot of reasons election polls are harder. The margins are usually small, the undecideds are higher than the margin of error, turnout, etc.
Opinion polls on the other hand just tell you what people are thinking, not what they are going to do.
The one I remember is " Don't worry the polls are wrong".
The theatrics in the House today is a good example of people that do believe the polls.

But tell me again why our death rate with guns is so much higher than other developed countries?
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
But tell me again why our death rate with guns is so much higher than other developed countries?
Here's one possible answer from the CDC

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/23k9ju/80_of_gunrelated_deaths_nonsuicide_are_gang/
According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
But tell me again why our death rate with guns is so much higher than other developed countries?
I thought we had already been through all of that. There are LOTS and LOTS of factors other than the number of guns.

Plus, as has been pointed out, that graph you keep posting is the result of cherry picking countries to fit an agenda. What does it mean to be a "developed country" and why aren't several other countries that have higher death rates and that are at least as "developed" as some of those in that list aren't included?

And while you're at it, please tell me (not "again" because I don't recall you ever explaining it a first time) why some of the world's worst mass shootings have happened in countries that have very strict gun laws (including in some of the countries toward the left end of that chart you are so fond of)?

Perhaps you can explain why the frequency per capita of public mass shootings is much higher is some of those countries compared to the U.S.. The U.S., from 2009 through 2015, has an occurrence rate of 7.8 mass shooting per 100 million people over that period while France has 9.2, Austria had 11.9, Finland has 18.4, Norway had 19.7, and Switzerland had 24.9. The U.S. was #12 on that list. The country that is first was Macedonia with 47.1.

Perhaps you can explain how it is possible that the E.U., over that period had more than half again as many casualties per capita from mass shootings than the U.S..

How is it possible that, since 1970, considering mass public shootings in which more than fifteen people have been killed, none of the top 20 are in the U.S. (and only 10% of the top 44)?
 
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