RIP students in Norway

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Robin Mitchell, Jul 23, 2011.

  1. Robin Mitchell

    Thread Starter Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

    RIP to those who died
    It was an awful attack by right wing extremists. Let me say this. Freedom of speech should NOT include racial hatred. I believe that if you are a Nazi of any kind or right wing you should be arrested and jailed. THIS includes the BNP!!!!
     
  2. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    I don't like or condone Nazi's, but once you start arresting people who don't agree with your point of view you have started down a path that winds up a lot like them. Once a line is established where you can arrest them the line itself can be moved over time.

    Better, I think, to track them and watch what they are doing. Hopefully you can stop this kind of thing before it manifests. Even then it can be the start of a tyranny.

    The difference between neoNazis and Jahadists isn't as great as they would like to think. Neither is that between a Democracy and Police State.
     
  3. Robin Mitchell

    Thread Starter Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    Im saying that specifically Nazi's should be arrested. ANYONE who insights racial hatred should be arrested.
     
  4. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
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    Someone who speaks to injustice between races(race relations) can create hatred in his listeners through no fault of his own, based on the emotional turmoil INSIDE the minds of those who hear his words.

    Martin Luther King spoke on race relations quite often, and many listeners were moved to violent acts the he DID NOT condone by his speech. They arrived at their justification for violence from internal dialogues and ideas sparked by his speeches.

    Should Martin Luther King have been jailed for 'hate speech'?
     
  5. JoeJester

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 26, 2005
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    The problem with free speech is those who disagree want some action taken.

    I don't have to like the speech to allow it. I can supply the counterpoint.

    On another forum, someone asked a question about approving interracial marriages. Some indicated they didn't for the more common reasons.

    I told them I was against interracial marriages. I believe no one should marry outside the human race.
     
  6. Robin Mitchell

    Thread Starter Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    arent interracial marriage important as it increases the gene pool?

    If M.L.K made hate speeches, yes he should be arrested for it. You can NOT insight racial hatred AT ALL! You cant use freedom of speech to insight mate in people. thats why i don't believe in free speech should be as free as it is.
     
  7. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    Like I said, that line moves, and moves very easily. Radical Islamists are using it in many EU countries to further their political agenda. If you speak against Islam, or Sharia law, then you deserve to be punished. They make no bones about freedom of speech, but are willing to use your willingness to suppress it for their ends. Best not to give them that line in the first place.

    There is a reason freedom of speech exists. It is passive. People will believe what they want no matter what other people want, you can never change that (and do you really want to?). Orwell's thought police do exist.

    By allowing people to state what they really think you know who your enemies truly are. A person who is allowed to freely state their views is allowing others to argue their case. In the end, it means you will have fewer secret organizations. By suppressing free speech you create what you were trying to prevent.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences reins in this front. The beauty of free speech is it requires no police force, no political force. You can save the force for those who are willing to practice it themselves.

    It is my belief that putting Freedom of Speech was one of the true innovations of the United States. We are still the only country that practices it to the degree it is allowed here compared to anywhere in the world. I seem to remember Britain banning the movie "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" due to its depiction of human sacrifice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  8. steveb

    Senior Member

    Jul 3, 2008
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    I agree with you 100 % Bill !

    My God though, what a terrible tragedy this was. It's heartbreaking. I don't know what the solution is to prevent these types of tragedies, or minimize the damage when they do happen.

    But, I doubt that arresting people for what they say in public would have any impact on this. I think anyone who would do such a thing would probably limit their speech to what is allowed by law, but the more you allow them to congregate and speak in public to spout their nonsense, the more likely it is you can identify these sick people before they strike.

    Still, no matter what we do, it is very difficult to fight this kind of thing. Any person can think of a million ways to cause pointless destruction, and no matter how many thousands of preventions get put in place, there will always be holes to be exploited. Also, some of the preventions might be viewed as "cures worse than the disease". For example, camp counselors trained and armed with weapons might have put a quick end to this, or prevented the attempt all together. Yet, how many parents would want to send their kids to such a camp? But, now that this has happened, I think parents will want to see some type of law enforcement capability in close range of any camp they send their kids to.
     
  9. Adjuster

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    Dec 26, 2010
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    I think that it is very difficult to have total freedom of speech, although we may not always be aware of the areas that are off-limits. It may simply seem natural to avoid certain taboo subjects or language. For instance, I doubt that anyone in this country wanting to stand on a soap box encouraging under-age sex would last very long. There are also still a few words that can't be said in public.

    There are however laws prohibiting certain subjects from public discussion, even in in many "democratic" countries. For instance, anyone recommending the extermination of people belonging to a particular ethnic, religious, or gender orientation category may be liable to prosecution.

    This may seem reasonable at first sight, but it has some fairly serious consequences. For instance, some religious groups preach the destruction of other sects which they consider to be heretical or apostate. Seeing this as incitement to religious hatred, we may wish to censor what they say. Can we then say that we allow total freedom of religion?
     
  10. Adjuster

    Well-Known Member

    Dec 26, 2010
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    Ah yes, give everybody a gun, and we will all be safe. Provided that the sheriff always draws first.

    Edit: Actually, I quite like the idea of armed "counsellors" advising the students. It would certainly give them an air of authority.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  11. TBayBoy

    Member

    May 25, 2011
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    ROTFLMAO I love it ... thanks.
     
  12. TBayBoy

    Member

    May 25, 2011
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    This is so true.
     
  13. praondevou

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jul 9, 2011
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    Thanks to this forum and TBayBoy I now know what the meaning of "ROTFLMAO" is.

    I feel really sorry for the people who died in Norway. I was born in Germany so I know what it means having a Nazi-past. They taught it over and over again in history classes, the cruelties, the atrocities, the extermination camps. I could never understand how a huge part of the german population could be manipulated in a way to think that they have to occupy the rest of the world.

    But was not just them. There were/are/will be so many of those power-hungry people, you couldn't count them. I don't know what is it that drives these people, it's all about power I guess, and the worst is they manage to induce hatred in us, common people and to use us as their marionette. There is always a reason you have to hate or dislike someone else, be it because he is black, he is ugly, homosexual, christian, islamist, chinese, small, tall, whatever. It's so fatiguing.
    The f... extremist of all kinds are those who make it difficult to have a peaceful life.

    Interracial marriages? You live long enough in a multi-color society and you don't see the skin color anymore. We just need to wait a few more centuries, and there will be no more race problem, because it's all mixed up.

    I ask myself what do these shooters/bombers think they achieve by doing what they are doing? In my opinion nothing. They even damage the reputation of serious parties/organizations that may work in the same direction.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
  14. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    The work of a single mad person, and it's truely a shame so many died in Norway, is not an excuse to punish the other 99.999999 percent of the population.

    Speech is speech. What would the world think if the U.S. shot that Cleric in Iraq, the 35 year old, who was running his mouth? You know the first thing they did when they negotiated with the US was to get the US snipers further out. I don't know what they think now but a Canadian sniper picked off a terrorist and one and one-half miles, so everyone knows there are capable shooters out there.

    The U.S. absorbs alot of negative talk without returning action on the speakers. This may give the illusion that the U.S. is weak, but it's more related to the position on free speech. No one would want this country to go down the road of taking action on speech.

    There are strange bedfellows when it comes to liberties. A black lawyer, member of the NAACP, defending the KKK's right to keep their membership list a secret is but one. A Jewish lawyer defending the Nazi Party right to assemble is another. Free speech is allowed.

    Until the act is attempted, everything else is speech. Once the attempt is made, the response is self-defense.
     
  15. Robin Mitchell

    Thread Starter Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    In the UK you cant insight racial hatred or swear in public, you get arrested. That just one of the reasons that makes the uk the most civilized place in the world, accepting all races and preventing hated etc...

    im just upset about the whole attack to be honest :(
    This is a blow on there economy because...and if you think about it... that is 88 potentially high paid jobs lost.
     
  16. TBayBoy

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    May 25, 2011
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    From what I get in the reports, this guy was unhappy at the direction his country was going and instead of becoming politically active, running for office, voting, etc. reached to solve things with a gun.

    His basic objection seemed to be interracial marrying, and the immigration laws.
     
  17. praondevou

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jul 9, 2011
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    Human stupidity is limitless. Related to freedom of speech here comes something for the Americans amongst us to chew on.

    I once attended a arabic language course (didn't last very long, was too difficult, though). Accidentally I listened to a discussion between some fellow students and I heard someone say: "If I see an american in front of me I'll kill him". I know people are saying a lot of BS without really meaning it but I couldn't resist and said to him that he couldn't be talking serious.

    Instead of stepping back he confirmed what he just said. I asked him so all the people who died in the Twin Tower attacks for example (I'm referring to the official version here not the conspiration theory) they deserved to die just for being americans, which he also confirmed.

    I still couldn't believe it and said so just for being born in the US you are automatically responsible for your governments actions? (I guess he was referring to the Bush administration)
    I also asked him about people who were not americans, people who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. answer: collateral damage.
    Yeah fine, I'd like to know what you'd think if your family or yourself is one of the collateral damages, Mr. Stupid. A few months ago I heard the same thing from an extrem left-wing guy when he was talking about Stalins Gulags. PLEASE GET ME OUT OF HERE!

    So what to do with these people, with these attitudes? Let them speak, let them spill their intellectual BS into other peoples minds?

    I can't understand how I can see a whole country as my enemy, with all people in it. Why are they not able to distinguish between who is really responsible and who isn't?
     
  18. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    <sarcasm>

    A good reply, "You too should be collateral damage."

    </sarcasm>
     
  19. TBayBoy

    Member

    May 25, 2011
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    You can not be responsible for correcting the stupidity or bigotry of people, or rescue other idiots from following them.

    You can, however allow them to make themselves look stupid.

    A case in point, currently my community is host to over 1,000 people evacuated from northern reserves because of fires.

    The other day, a number of these evacuees were on the same bus as myself, an elderly gentleman got on, and huffed something about it, to the driver. She smiled politely and offered him a bus transfer back to 1959.

    The look on his face was priceless.
     
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