re-wiring winch controls

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by cgalpin, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    Hi Folks

    I'll try not get too long winded, but here is some background on my project. I installed an I-beam on the ceiling of my garage and put a motorized trolley on it, and mounted an electric winch onto the trolley. Here is what it looks like with the power sources combined, mainly as a point of reference

    IMG_0942.JPG

    Both the trolley and winch have their own controls, each with a single rocker switch to run the motor in one direction or another. I now want to combine these controls into a single control (they call them pendants) with four buttons as well as extend the length of the control cable.

    IMG_0968.jpg IMG_0970.jpg --> IMG_0965.jpg

    The new control has 4 buttons and 5 wires. One is "common" providing power and when you press a button, it completes a circuit with the common wire and one of the other 4. This is consistent with my expectations and I completely understand this.

    The two existing controls are slightly different. The trolley control has a 16 uF 450VAC 50/60hz capacitor inside the control body and 3 wires to the rocker switch. One provides power and when you press the switch in one direction it completes the circuit to one of the other wires.

    IMG_0967.jpg

    This also makes sense to me but I don't fully understand the the purpose of the capacitor. The way it's wired makes me think it's in parallel - is that correct? I did some reading but don't understand the difference between a start capacitor and run capacitor. I don't think it matters as I will retain this, but I'd like to understand it better. But other than this, the new control wiring will work perfectly here so I'm good.

    The real reason for me seeking help, is the second control. It uses 4 wires and 2 x CBB1 80uF 250VAC 50/60Hz capacitors (located near the motor). It looks like I have a limit of 6 pictures per post so I just show the wiring and not the capacitors but I can add a picture of the capacitors in a followup post if need be.

    IMG_0969.JPG

    I don't fully understand the current circuit, and need to figure out how to use my new simpler control mechanism to do the same thing without the 4 wires, and retain the capacitors. I think I'll need to make another post with some more pictures to explain it.

    To be continued....
     
  2. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    Here is a picture of the capacitors

    IMG_0971.jpg

    And here is a picture of the wiring diagram shown where the winch wiring is located.

    IMG_0964.jpg

    The switch has 6 posts and using my multi-meter I see when I push the switch, on the left side the circuit is closed between the center pin and the opposite side post, and visa versa. On the right, the circuit is closed between the center and the post in the direction you are pushing.

    So looking at the switch (last picture of previous post) with the wiring going up, on the left side both outer posts are wired to the green wire which is also the right side top post. So a press in either direction completes a circuit between the green and white. An upward press also completes the circuit between the green and black, and a downward press completes the circuit between the red and black.

    Ok, on the winch/motor side this is what I believe I have. The numbers in parenthesis match the numbers on the wiring diagram on the winch above.

    WHITE (11) connects to (5) which is connected to both capacitors in parallel, then goes to (7) which is U1 on the motor.

    GREEN (10) goes to Z2 motor. The (4) shown is interesting as that is connected to the other side of the capacitors on the white circuit which I don't really understand.

    RED (9) goes to (8). The switch between (8) and (7) is a cutoff switch if the winch cable is drawn in too far.

    BLACK (12) -- (1) - black on power cable

    Does this make sense? Any insights on how I can take my 2 button and 3 control wires to do the same thing as all 4? I hear a loud click when the motor engages so perhaps there is some kind of electromagnetic safety lock that disengages before the motor turns and the green wire controls this? It seems I need a solenoid that completes that circuit when it gets a signal from either of the other forward/reverse motor signals, but I am not sure.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    charles
     
  3. R!f@@

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    Tell me. Have u taken the whole thing apart.

    Do u see any contactors or power relays.
     
  4. DigitalReaper

    Member

    Aug 7, 2010
    70
    2
    The stock pendants seem to run on 230v AC but your replacement is only rated for 24v. You'll need to build some kind of interface box since it isn't suitable for running the motors directly.

    Maybe you could use relay logic and avoid needing a seperate power supply (if you can find relays with 230v AC coils) for any logic circuitry.
     
  5. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
    16,261
    6,774
    If you are going to use the 4 wire pendant you are going to have to move the other goodies to a location near the motors and probably add relays to get the logic right.

    and no, I can't gather enough information from you posts to draw a schematic for you.

    yeah, what Reaper said.
     
  6. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    I have taken it apart to the point where I can see the wires going into the motor housing. No contactors or relays which kind of surprises me because I didn't think you could get away with running 120V through the switches like that without burning them out. I thought maybe the capacitors smoothed out the current spike or something, but still don't understand what they do exactly. Even the safety cutoff switch is a dinky looking switch to me. I'll take more pictures and post once I get a wiring diagram made.

    Yes I noticed this and it does concern me. But before I purchased the pendant I called them up and spoke to someone technical and explained what I wanted to do and they assured me the model I asked about would be able to handle the stock 120V (8 amp) load. Although I think the same guy told me it would have 6 wires and it has 5 so I dunno anymore. The wire gauge is the same as the existing and the switches seem heaver duty, but I wasn't happy to see this - that pendant alone was $100 and this project has gotten way expensive!

    If I go to the point of needing a logic circuit to do this, I might consider going wireless at that point. I'd rather keep it simple if I can though.

    I have room to move the 16uF capacitor up to next to the motor with the other two capacitors, and for that portion of the controls (the trolley), the new pendant will work fine so that one is not an issue I think. The other capacitors are already up at the motor so no worries there.

    The two issues seem to be

    1. The ability for the pendant to handle 110/120v
    2. How to make a circuit do the same thing triggered with the new pendant button push.

    I'll try draw a circuit as accurately as I can to express the current circuit and hopefully someone can see what will be needed from that.

    thanks,
    charles
     
  7. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    I am embarrassed to admit it, but I downloaded Fritzing to draw the circuit but quickly got frustrated and gave up. So here are some pictures of what I physically have and my hand drawn circuits.

    This shows the wiring exposed at the winch. You will see the capacitors, and the control with the 4 wires and the power coming in. The only things not show are the normally closed switch connections the red wires go to, and that the white wire coming from the power is numbered 3.

    IMG_0973.jpg

    This is a close up to make the numbers easier to see

    IMG_0974.jpg

    As a reminder, here is the wiring diagram given. It has the numbers shown and looks a lot like the physical setup.
    IMG_0964.jpg

    This is my drawing of the same circuit but just showing which wires are the control wires and which are power. I also note the switch action which I describe again below
    IMG_0975.jpg

    And here is a simplification of the circuit above removing all the connections. It doesn't look too complicated does it?
    IMG_0976.jpg

    So finally, my goal is this. I have 2 buttons to control spooling the winch out, or reeling it in and the pendant has 3 wires to accomplish this - one shared and two others. I want to achieve the following:

    button press for up: join green and white and join green and black.

    button press for down: join green and white and join red and black

    I assume this means I need a relay or solenoid? I'll try see what's available for 120V.
     
  8. shortbus

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 30, 2009
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    Surprised that no one has mentioned that a cable winch like this is not to be used for overhead lifting :( Unless it is stated/rated for that type service.
     
  9. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
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    1
  10. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
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    I thought I had looked at the manual for the winch, but I guess not, because I just saw it does have a wiring diagram! I haven't had a chance to compare it to mine and noodle it through, but this might help someone who actually knows what they are doing understand my problem. Essentially I want to change the pendant switch out to use my two button pendant. I am assuming at this point I'll want a DPDT relay but I'm not sure if those can be actuated by 120V and if the draw is low enough to use my 24V/5A pendant to actuate it (else I'll return it or figure out how to step it down to 24v).


    winch wiring diagram.png
     
  11. BillB3857

    Senior Member

    Feb 28, 2009
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    After looking at the schematic in the Owner's Manual, it looks like the cap is in the circuit for phase shift to one of the motor windings. One UP direction, the cap is in series with one winding and full power to the other. For DOWN direction, cap is and full power to the windings gets reversed. Manual was downloaded from http://www.harborfreight.com/1300-lb-capacity-electric-hoist-2954.html
     
  12. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    Thanks BillB3857. BTW, I took the schematic from the manual and posted it in post #10 to save you the trouble of downloading the manual :)

    I did look at the circuit and have re-read your last post several times, and honestly still don't fully understand. I assume the phase shifting on one winding works in both directions? And the change of 120V to u2 or z2 is what changes the direction? I think it's #4 in the page below?

    http://www.lmphotonics.com/single_phase_m.htm

    Regardless, I believe my issue is simply replacing S1 in that schematic with two single switches capable of <= 24v (5 amps). I believe I need a DPST relay with 120V contacts (8 amp minimum) and the coil side driven by <= 24v so I can use my fancy new pendant. I have searched a bit but can't seem to find this combo. Otherwise I suppose I could do the same with 3 relays - one <= 24v SPST relay driving two SPST relays with 120V contacts and and the coil side driven by <= 24v.

    Agree? I can't seem to find a DPST to fit the need, but looks like one of these controlling two of these might do it (although I am not sure the pcb form factor is going to be easy to work with). Any suggestions?

    And then I need to get an AC to DC convertor to drive the lower voltage side of the relays, depending on what I voltage I end up finding I need for those relays. Oy!
     
  13. R!f@@

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    If this is ur circuit, then I think the switches can handle the motor current.

    Like to know if this is what u really wanna do?
     
  14. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
    1
    Yes it is! I wish I had seen that earlier as I have been doing a horrible job of explaining it all, but it's really that simple.

    Are you saying my new 24V/5 amp rated switches can handle this? Can you explain why you say this? And in case I didn't mention it, the new pendant has 20' of chord (original were about 4').

    I really just want to replace that S1 switch that uses 4 wires with 2 x single pole switches using a total of 3 wires as simply and cheaply as possible :)

    But I looked at your garage door thread and yes I guess a garage door opener probably has all the bits I need. Maybe I can find a broken one on craigslist or something. I didn't see what you actually did though. If I understand it correctly you were posting the solution up front, and it involved some relays controlling the contactors?
     
  15. BillB3857

    Senior Member

    Feb 28, 2009
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    The switch in the original pendant looks to be a DPDT-Center OFF switch. You would need two relays to duplicate that function. With one relay, connected the way the original switch is, there would be no OFF. As for the 24V-5A rated switch handling the motor load, although the Amp rating is OK, the voltage rating is not. Voltage ratings on switches represent the amount of voltage they can safely interrupt. You wouldn't put a 24V rated fuse into and inductive 120VAC circuit, would you?
     
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  16. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
    18
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    No I don't think it's a good idea to put 120V through the 24V rated switches. That's why I was saying I want to use relays with <=24V on the coil side. Do the ones I link to in post #12 look suitable?

    I agree a DPST relay for each button will work but I can't find one that is 120V on the contacts and <= 24V on the coil. I'd need the ones from post #12 for each button otherwise afaikt.

    I will draw a circuit later this morning when I get a chance to show what I think I need and you can let me know what I have wrong (if anything).

    Thanks,
    charles
     
  17. shortbus

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 30, 2009
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    cgalpin likes this.
  18. cgalpin

    Thread Starter New Member

    Mar 28, 2012
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    I do and the first one is in stock!

    My google foo must be weak. I guess the difference is these are DPDT and I was searching DPST but I can just not use one of the throws.

    Ok so one more stupid question. What's a good way to get 24VDC from 120VAC? I have some old 6V power supplies so maybe it's best I get these 6V versions?

    http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Square-Base-General-Purpose-Relay-5YR22

    Although I'd have to wait for these.

    Thanks!
    charles
     
  19. BillB3857

    Senior Member

    Feb 28, 2009
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    A lot of central air conditioner compressor /fan relays have 24VAC coils and DPST contacts. Grainger probably has them, as well as the 24VAC control transformer.
     
  20. R!f@@

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    I post even though I know it, cause I always looks for simple approaches.

    The circuit posted by strantor in that thread is the same circuit. And it is what u need.

    Before getting relays it is advisable to study what u have.

    I wish I have time to go thru all ur posts cause ur info is really limited.

    Lemme see if I can tonight.

    It would be easier to talk thru chat. My MSN ID is in my profile. If u can log in via msn. I can show what to do after a brief chat with u.

    I am not avoiding the posting. I just need to know everything at once. It's easier to do it while I am online. Cause I cannot think abt AAC while I work.
     
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