radio frequency could burn salt water

Discussion in 'Physics' started by zulkarnain, May 17, 2008.

  1. zulkarnain

    zulkarnain Thread Starter New Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1
    who can explain why radio frequency could burn salt water
  2. Dave

    Dave Senior Member Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    How do you mean "burn" salt water?

    It is no secret that RF and microwaves can heat water and there is an associated super-heating phenomenon, but I'd don't understand the notion of "burning" (which to me implies charring etc) with regards to salt water.

    Dave
  3. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    425
    I remember this from last year, but not too many details. He means burn, like an actual flame. I'll remember to look later, see if I can dig something up.

    *edit
    http://www.wpbf.com/news/13383827/detail.html

    Simple Google search... West Palm Beach, Florida... No wonder I remembered it, not too far away from here. Anyway, you have to put more energy in, then you could hope to generate from the heat. Neat trick, but not sure what it would be good for, but perhaps I just don't understand all the details.
    Last edited: May 18, 2008
  4. Dave

    Dave Senior Member Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Thanks Harvey, I would be interested in look anything you can dig out.

    Like I said above I'm familiar with the underpinning so of microwave (or RF) super-heating, but "burning" is not something I have come across in the traditional sense of the word.

    Dave
  5. triggernum5

    triggernum5 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    216
    I was under the impression that the microwaves were used to resonate the H20 enough to break them apart, but its still just plain old energy wasting hydrolysis..
    I'm unclear on the role of the salt here though.. Is it necessary for auto-combustion? Or necessary to actually have any decent probability of fully severing the water? I can imagine how it assists the process, but is an electrolyte as important under induced RF conditions as it is under DC or AC?
  6. Xray

    Xray Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    59
    There are quite a few posts on YouTube concerning "Burning Saltwater", and "Saltwater as fuel". Apparently, there is an inventor named John Kanzious (spelling may not be correct) who was working on a couple of inventions at the time when he discovered that he could disassociate H and O from Saltwater using a Radiofrequency generator. One project he was working on was using RF power to desalinate sea water, and another project was using RF power as a means to treat cancerous cells in the body. During his experimentation, he had discovered that he could ignite the gases given off from saltwater while in an RF field. Well, the News Media latched on to that story and turned it into a bunch of ridiculous hype, saying things like "can you imagine burning saltwater in your car instead of gasoline?"! Even Kanzious made a comment during one of the videos where he said, "Imagine a flame like that inside the engine of your car!". Well, of course everyone got all excited over the possibility of "burning saltwater" in your car instead of gasoline. This story took off like skyrockets and now there are tens or maybe even hundreds of YouTube videos claiming that saltwater is a fuel that can replace gasoline. A lot of the hype is propagated by the "Free Energy" quacks who don't understand physics or chemistry. Anyhow, that's where this concept of "burning saltwater" originated.

    If you want to get a laugh (or maybe get sick to your stomach) search on key words "Saltwater as fuel" on YouTube. Anyone with even an elementary background in Physics or Chemistry will roll their eyes while watching those videos because of the ludicrous claims that are made. (I sure did!!!)
  7. Dave

    Dave Senior Member Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    This sort of thing always happens when something (in this instance water) that doesn't appear to be ignitable subsequently is, and then there is mass-hysteria about it being the solution to the West's oil-dependence. I've read it a million times. Then free-energy goons get in on it telling us we get something for nothing - the energy required to generate the RF will massively out strip that that can be released from the water.

    I will have a look at the videos on youtube for my amusement.

    Dave
  8. Voltboy

    Voltboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    197
    Location:
    Ground
  9. thingmaker3

    thingmaker3 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,072
    Location:
    Rural, Oregon GMT -8
    From page two of the article:"While the RFG produces a hydrogen flame that burns stably, the amount of energy it puts out is less than the amount of energy needed to power the RFG. In this sense, any energy that comes out of the salt-water flame cannot be considered a source of power. It's just a manifestation of the energy being put into it, only in a lesser amount. This makes it unlikely that the RFG could produce a real, viable source of fuel."
  10. Voltboy

    Voltboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    197
    Location:
    Ground
    Thats completely true.. but in the 1800's who would imagine that petroleum was really helpful.. who knows if burning salt water would be efficent someday, same as H cars and other variations.
  11. theamber

    theamber Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    Monterrey, Mexico
    It is possible to get good amounts of energy from any material the problem lays in how feasible or complex is the method needed to produce it. In the future certainly trash and biological waste could be a good source of energy I hope it would be environmentally friendly.
  12. Mark44

    Mark44 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    626
    Location:
    Snohomish County, USA
    We're never going to make the process more efficient in the future, as the strength of the bonds of the atoms in H2O is well known. On an energy basis, this process is a loser: it takes more energy to break the atomic bonds in water than is produced by burning the resulting hydrogen. On a monetary basis, the process might be feasible if you don't mind using large quantities of cheap energy to produce relatively small quantities of hydrogen. As an example, nuclear-powered submarines use power from their reactors to dissociate seawater to get oxygen for the crew to breathe.
  13. myidismine

    myidismine New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    4
    Hi,

    There is a lot of things we don't know and scientists can't explain them.
    The people who coin the term "free energy" know what they are talking about. They are scientists.
    Yes energy can't be created nor distroyed; however, if you can invent a machine that runs on water you will no longer pay for gas; therefore, you get energy for free."FREE ENERGY".

    Let me know where I'm wrong.

    Myidismine,
  14. Bill_Marsden

    Bill_Marsden Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    19,088
    Location:
    Dallas, TX (GMT-5 w/ DST)
    Laws of Thermodynamics.

    Read them, learn them, try to live without them, you'll starve to death.

    There are a lot of things we do know, this is one of them.

    People who advocate free energy aren't scientists, their scam artists. Real scientists give clear concise instructions that are easily repeated. So far, all we have are true believers and no scientists.

    Water is not a fuel, is the ash from burning hydrogen and oxygen.

    If we made hydrogen from solar energy it is free, but that is from the sunlight, the hydrogen is a transport mechanism.
Similar Threads: radio frequency
Forum Title Date
Physics cluster radioactivity Oct 19, 2011
Physics Polarization of Radio Waves Apr 25, 2010
Physics Radioactivity Apr 17, 2008
Physics Can Two EM Waves, Same Frequency,Out of Phase, Affect Wavelength ? Nov 24, 2013
Physics efficiency of speaker driver below resonance frequency Oct 9, 2013

Share This Page