PWM to break down Hydrogen Gas?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by bundick, Dec 19, 2009.

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  1. bundick

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Dec 19, 2007
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    Reading about making Hydrogen gas for combustion engines, (the posts on this forum got pretty stormy) I got curious about the use of Pulse Width in making the Hydrogen Gas collect on the positive pole and the Oxy collect on the negative.

    Why use PWM? Is it the Square wave 'Smack' that seperates the two parts?

    PS: Some years ago I had the good fortune to work a day with a Physicist. About noon we had a samwich and began to discuss water injection.
    His explanation was lengthy. His ending comments were; "Dont do it!"

    Just lately I found another article saying if you try to burn HOH in a small Gas engine you'll need Stainless Valves and a Ceramic coated piston.

    As you might have guessed, I'm going to try it. :rolleyes:But today my question is simply Why use PWM to separate the gasses?
     
  2. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Read about electrolysis. With current through the cell, water breaks down into the constituent gasses - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

    Note that the action requires current. In PWM, current is only intermittent. One might suspect that gas production ceases during those non-current periods. Imagining that it could be otherwise makes no sense.

    This whole topic is very unrewarding, as questioners have been sold a bill of gods and tend to accuse us of not playing fair when we tell them that anything dealing with supposedly more efficient means of electrolyzing water is a scam. PWM is a valid means of doing several things, but electrolysis is not one.

    If you are really going to try to burn an explosive mixture of gasses, do so away from others.

    If you like, follow the link - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=28067 - and you will find quite a lot of material in it.
     
  3. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    PWM is just a way of controlling current and voltage digitally. It only works on devices that average the power, such as light bulbs or motors, since when it is on the device gets full power, (voltage and current), and when it is off they get none. It is still a useful technique for many applications, with the right control circuits it is also useful for a switching mode power supply (SMPS), but you have to add external components to average the power besides the load (typically coils and capacitors), and keep tight control on it.
     
  4. blueroomelectronics

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    Jul 22, 2007
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  5. bundick

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Dec 19, 2007
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    Thank you guys for the information and the links.
    Amongst the things I've learned in the last month or so, H Gas is only about 30 Per cent as volatile as Gasoline.
    It seems like igniting it, even a compressed mix, might be a problem.

    It seems like any current would do the job. Lots of it would do a better job. How much an application might need is a wild guess.
    Storing it is dangerous. So making it as you go is the only real answer.
    That just about limits the application to small engines on inland lakes.
     
  6. shortbus

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 30, 2009
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    If you think the above is true, you better forget about experimenting with this! Google "Hindenburg"
     
  7. bundick

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Dec 19, 2007
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    Yes, H Gas is flammable, and it will burn. I promise I'll only kill myself once! :)
     
  8. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    Great. I promise to put your name in for a Darwin. You'll probably make it on the first ballot.:):D

    http://www.darwinawards.com/
     
  9. jpanhalt

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    Oh, please. Why were hydrogen bombs considered so secret, if all it requires is mixing hydrogen and oxygen and compressing it?

    Please give your source for that WAG.

    John
     
  10. bundick

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Dec 19, 2007
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    Marvelous Dave. You put a lot of time and thinking into that post.
    I appreciate it. Your story ought to sell in Readers Digest.

    I got at least three things out of your post.

    One: Use a soft metal container to generate the Hydrogen. That way, if it blows, the soft metal will open up and not shatter like a glass container would.
    I might even get trick n fancy and make one side even softer so the big event will go toward the wall or some uninhabited area.

    Two I was going to make the plates about four inches apart. I think to myself, that is the only way to separate the H and O and keep them separated.
    You mention 1MM? How did they separate the gasses with the plates that close?

    Third, I wonder if the gas can be made quickly enough to keep an engine going.?

    PS: Its still some hours from the New years and already the shooting has started. :)
     
  11. bundick

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Dec 19, 2007
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    jpanhalt, I really enjoy ebooks. Thanks!
     
  12. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    More undocumented and unsupported garbage?

    There is a difference between hydrogen power misstated as fuel cells, and actually operating an IC engine with an explosive gas. There is a reason why we do not get into this garbage any longer - the true believers bend things way too much. No figures, no documented devices, no truth - but lots of noise.
     
  13. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Any investigation using a search engine will turn up an H cell.
     
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