Project Iron Man %More powerful muscles%

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by Ujwal Bhagat, Feb 22, 2016.

  1. Ujwal Bhagat

    Thread Starter Member

    Jan 30, 2016
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    Hey I am now finding a project to work this summer. I want to build a suit not full but only for hand at first stage. I want to use motors and sensors to increase the force of hit of my hand.
    I think for the first stage development the motor should be fixed on the elbow and the sensor also. Help me with this.
     
  2. Evanguy

    Member

    Dec 21, 2014
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    Adding any weight to your hand you will be hitting alot slower and no more powerfull then you are now. velocity is about 4 time more important then mass. so heavy and slow will have less ftlb of force.also you arm is only as strong as your arm is. how will you make more power without helping the mussle that swings a punch? its super unlikely but mounting from the shoulder blades and shoulders you could mayby get a little closer to what you want.


    but for every action here is an equal and opposite reaction. you will likely just move your own body weight backwards.
     
  3. jpanhalt

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    Jan 18, 2008
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    In boxing, I believe it is the momentum of the fist/arm that knocks the other fighter out. Of course, the amount of energy it takes to get that momentum in the time span/space allowed is described by the kinetic energy equation. Physiologically, the speed of a punch is less controlled by the mass of the hand and forearm than it is by the rate of muscle contraction. Thus, putting a weight in your hand, like a roll of nickles, is a well known way to increase the effective punch and is banned in all legitimate boxing circles.

    I think he TS's question relates not to just adding weight, but to augmenting the force/velocity of the blow. Of the two, I think it is the velocity that matters most, as punches are not pushes (for the sake of argument). Since it is mostly velocity, then I don't think an special suit is very practical. Speeding up the mechanics of a punch with a machine is probably a good way to hurt yourself.

    On the other hand, if you are interested in something like lifting weights where velocity is not the limiting factor, then such a mechanical helper might be doable. I have read about such efforts to help disabled people, such as those with muscle weakness or wounded veterans. Unfortunately, I did not save the links to that work.

    Which is it? Do you want speed or just power?

    John
     
  4. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    Yeah you are right, but I want motors to assist me, like US military project TALOS.
     
  5. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    Lifting weights actually so just power.
     
  6. jpanhalt

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    Here is a brief description of mechanical assist devices for movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton
    There appear to be several relevant links in the references.

    The question comes to what advice do you want? This is an electronics forum. While people here have expertise in many disciplines besides electronics, at this point, it looks like the onus is on you to come up with a plan and specific questions or problems that can be addressed.

    John
     
  7. Kermit2

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    Feb 5, 2010
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    It will QUICKLY overcome any bracing your body can provide. Almost every muscle in your body, legs, back and stomach especially, will be used to balance and support you while you throw a punch.
    Increasing the force of that punch, requires you to increase the strength of ALL the supporting muscles in your body.
    If the device becomes a full suit then what you are envisioning could be possible.
     
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  8. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    I want a fragment of it just for one arm. Please suggest me motor specifications and circuit diagram.
     
  9. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    Please read above post. As I mentioned that I want it for lifting weight and not for punching.
     
  10. tcmtech

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    Nov 4, 2013
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    The biggest issue is that when lifting anything with your hand or arm it's not just those muscles doing the work. As pointed out earlier your whole body is at work providing the counter force to balance the exertion of your arm and hand muscles.

    Using micro hydraulic actuators and pump units with electric over hydraulic tactile motion sensing to control them could conceivably give you the an exoskeletal arm that could easily lift a ton or more but your core body obviously won't be able to provide the counter support to the load being lifted or moved.

    Simply put when lifting anything it's a whole body effort literally right down to your toes if you are standing.

    Believe me as someone who has had many back injuries in their life time. Any movement you think that is just related to one part of your body is related to every part of your body.
    Most people just don't realize it unless they have had an injury where the simple and light effort of just picking up a cell phone at arms length produces the searing pain of being stabbed in another muscle group no where close to the hands that has to react to balance out the forces and effort the hand muscle is creating.
     
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  11. blocco a spirale

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    Jun 18, 2008
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    You should adjust your expectations and find a simpler project that you stand a chance of completing successfully.

    Have you ever wondered why we don't all have power-assisted arms; it would be useful, right?
     
  12. Evanguy

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    Dec 21, 2014
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    You can make a hydraulic arm that lifts 3 tonne no issue then you can hold that with your arms. Then you can lift three tonnes....ohh wait.....your lags cant lift 3 tonne.

    So mount it to the ground or the back of a truck and make work equitment out of it.
     
  13. Kermit2

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    Feb 5, 2010
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    Give me motor specs and circuit... that's always my favorite part of these posts.

    'cause ya know we OWE it to them. Poor uneducated people who could be successful if only us smart guys would 'spread the knowledge' around.
     
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  14. jpanhalt

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    I think that argument is more than a little factitious. The OP has not quantitated what level of mechanical assist he plans. I give him credit for not wanting a 30:1 assist. However, I believe a 2:1 or 3:1 assist is entirely possible. That is, a 105# lady will be able to lift 210# . Her legs and body do that every time she runs around the block.

    John
     
  15. tcmtech

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    Nov 4, 2013
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    I have my doubts about even being able to handle a 2:1 power increase for more than short periods of time. Take the maximum amount you can lift with both arms all the way out then double that and bring it in only as far as you need to to lift that then try moving around a bit. It ain't so easy is it?

    Back in my younger days I could deadlift well over 600 pounds without too much trouble. Problem was I couldn't move much while doing it. It was pretty much a straight up straight down with minimal shuffling at best.

    Although our legs and core muscles can support substantially greater peak loads than our own body weight makes up for as the overall load goes further and further above the base weight load maneuverability and stamina drastically drops of in return.

    Even with added weight well distributed all around our body and in close adding just 20% of our base weight in payload becomes exhausting work in a short time without proper endurance training.
     
  16. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    So can I build a totally functional exoskeleton?
     
  17. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    I think I should make a totally functional exoskeleton?
     
  18. Ujwal Bhagat

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    Jan 30, 2016
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    Assistant me making a totally functional exoskeleton.
     
  19. tcmtech

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    Nov 4, 2013
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    How much money, engineering skills, fabrication skills and resources and time do you have to put into this?

    If you don't have an extreme amount of all three then this project is way beyond your ability to accomplish which unfortunately as the questions you have already asked have shown us from what we can see already you are likely severely lacking in every one of them.

    Basically unless you are a eccentric billionaire engineering genius with a multi million dollar fabrications shop and most of your remaining life to devote to this project it's not going to happen.

    Personally since I have a lot of things I need to lift that are beyond my physical capabilities I put my money into buying an old forklift tractor and fixing it up. Total investment was under $1000 and a few days of my time and now I can pickup up up to just over 3000 pounds with the movement of one hand all while sitting down. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
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  20. jpanhalt

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    Jan 18, 2008
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    I take a little more optimistic view for a demonstration device versus a working, viable unit. My primary concern about the latter when done on a very limited budget is the risk of serious harm to the subject.

    For a demonstration, you might consider a brace that couples at the wrist and shoulder and articulates at the elbow. Maybe something like this:
    upload_2016-2-23_7-12-45.png

    Then use a low-pressure pneumatic cylinder to operate it. Whether the brace needs to be attached at the elbow is for you to decide.

    John
     
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