In the book I'm reading the author states that there is an equal amount of positive charge in the ground that matches the negative charge in the clouds above. That the positive charges are drawn to the clouds and that they will rise above the power lines.

::"image removed due to hosts image bandwidth constraints"

What are positive charges? I thought it was the electrons from negatively charged particles that were going to do the moving. What is happening with positive charge movement? I understood it as electrons are what moves. What is this business about positive charge movement?

THanks in advance.

 

The absence of electrons create holes where the electrons would normally be. These holes can be thought of as positive charge carriers.

Electrons in general are pretty fluid, then can be moved around pretty easily.

 

How is it that the holes(positive charge) move from inside the ground up to higher ground, trees, telephone poles, etc.? Since electrons are what moves, how are the holes(positive charge) moving towards the electrons? That's what this author seems to be saying. Is this possible?

 

It's more like the electrons leave the neighborhood, leaving holes behind. Remember similar polarities repel, opposites attact.

As an electronic concept holes are considered particles. They aren't, but as a model it works.

It is applied a lot with semiconductor theory.

 

Here is a link to NOAA's take on it - http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/primer/lightning/ltg_basics.html

 

Not a bad description, but

Oxygen molecules are more positive than Hydrogen Molecules

All molecules are neutral.

 

"all the mumbo jumbo, how has the mystical ways of earth and sky been lessened by we, those never satisfyed by myth or legend, wondered, when Sally slid across the seat of the 53 Buick one winter's evening and planted that 40,000 volt kiss, why our lips felt like the battle of Jupiter and Thor was taking place right then and there?
How have we been cheated by knowing now what causes a rainbow? I want that pot of gold.
and the kite and the key thing, yeah, that was a leep of faith!
lets go through all this pain so we can draw a diode backwards!"

the preceeding has been a paraphrase from my early electronics instructor in the mid 60's. mr houde, where ever you are, thank you for letting me know it is ok to question and explore.
I always thought it was her braces.

 

foolios,
(and the author of your book is over simplifying to look smart).

..
Lightning travels from the ground up The reason you see a bright flash traveling from the sy to the ground is because the current is igniting the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in the air. Since the heat is greatest at the point of contact, the heat is generated from the point of contact towards the source (ie the light travels from the point of contact "The Sky" down to the source "The Ground").
..
To copmplicate your life more - Oxygen molecules are more positive than Hydrogen Molecules, but they are in neutral states when in the H20 (water) molecule. Rain falling down through the atmosphere is the result of hydrogen and aoygen molecules bonding to each other. The falling water (Raindrops) cause friction that dresults in static electrical charges (the result of the hydrogen molecules being forced away from the oxygen molecules). Take into consideration that a water molecule has two hydrogen units to one oxygen unit, and the fact that there is three times as many hydrogen molecules in the air as oxygen molecules. You will understand that these more negative charged atoms being pushed around cause the atmosphere to become more negatively charged. Hence the blind dtatement that the Clouds are negatively charged.
..
Rain is not the only forcewhich causes static build up - the thermal mass (a low Weather fron, and a High preassure front - both cause similar effects. When both are present - the effects are magnified).
..
Lightning is the elctrical energy distribution cycle which resets thecharge potential between earth and sky, and even different areas of the sky (which is why you see lightning jumping accross the sky).
..
Think of it as a circuit, and with a basic knowledge of electricity it all comes into perspective.
..
Incidentally, the thunder is the reaction of water molecules splitting in the presence of excess hydrogen. The hydrogen reacting to recombine or be stripped from the water molecules is a violent reaction - and a loud one.
..
So much for my late grandmother's explanation that rain is the tears of angels crying, and thunder being gods warning to earthly sinners... or is it actually a more simple explanation without all the electrical mumbo jumbo?
...
dataman19

I have highlighted a few of your statements, but not all, that need checking. Please read up on lightning before positing such nonsense.

Ground to cloud is less frequent than cloud to ground lightning (see: Wikipedia). What is the hydrogen concentration in air at ground level? Etc.

John

 

without all the electrical mumbo jumbo

But this is a site dedicated to "electrical mumbo-jumbo".

 

jpanhalt,
Your Wiki needs to be updated... But this matter is a fact of heated discussion at NOA..
..
24+ years of Electronics Communications Research and in particular atmospheric phenominal interaction in communications reliability has taught me many things.
..
Flying through thousands of thunderstorms in a C130 with a mile of wire trailing behind to attract electrostatic discharges (aka ligtening) has taught me a lot more.
..
Twelve years of Hydrogen research and atmospheric gases has taught me even more.
..

Impressive credentials. What is NOA?

Can you provide a lead to some of your publications on the role of hydrogen in lightning and thunder?

John

 

Last time I heard this nonsense is was from the over unity crowd, at the same time the claim the earth was sentient and water was its memory. Silly me, I thought lightning was about plasma and ionization. Wait, IT IS!

It has nothing to do with hydrogen or oxygen, most of the ionization is nitrogen, which makes up 70% of our atmosphere.

While lightning has some aspects that are not understood, for the most part we have a lot of info. Static generation is also pretty understood too.

Try science, it is much better than fantasy. I read both, but I know the difference.

 

Started out as an Organic Chemists

As an organic chemist you surely know that all molecules, without exception, are neutral.

That any molecule that has had an electron or electrons 'shaved off' or added is no longer a molecule but something else, possibly an ion.

That many molecules, whilst electrically neutral overall, are polar or polarized so present faces to the outside world that are slightly positive or negative.
Nevertheless, for every slightly positive face on a molecule there is another slightly negative face somewhere else on the same molecule.

I do not wish to denigrate your other claims but merely ask for some hard facts figures, to compare against other known ones.

For instance what would the increased hydrogen concentration amount to?
The average concentration of this gas is so low ( 0.6 parts per million) that a hundredfold
local concentration increase has no practical significance.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113518676/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

 

Impressive credentials. What is NOA?
John

NOA is the guy that built the boat because it was getting real deep with all the lightening and rain and stuff