Panacea University

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Farlander, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    I now seem to be on the cutting edge of whatever the trendy fad is in free energy devices. I have finally caught up to where the leaders are right now. This is good for me, because it means that if something interesting does pop up, I'm privy to the knowledge. I'd like any who are interested in the latest such device (as of now about 2 weeks since published) to read this, it doesn't really get interesting until page 7 but it's an easy read.
    http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Magnetic Resonant Amplifier.pdf

    Any thoughts on if this could work like they claim it does?
     
  2. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Another change of direction and so a new thread.

    The site's disclaimer says it all. Anyone is wasting time and money trying to make any of their stuff. It's an anti-warranty, necessary because they (whoever runs the site) knows perfectly well all the crud presented is a scam. With such a disclaimer, taking them to court over misrepresented claims only makes the suit really foolish. I suggest that the pain they seek to relieve us of is that of an overly-full wallet. You will notice that, while disclaiming any result or injury that may result, they earnestly seek financial support.

    Re. the piezo element in series with the transformer winding. See above.
     
  3. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    From the text: "If everyone would take the time to go back to Electronics 101 and carefully study the resonant phenomenon and the effects you get with a finely tuned L-C circuit, then and only then will you appreciate what is happening in the RV and MRA circuit." I agree whole-heatedly. Only by doing exactly this, by looking at how the universe really works where resonant circuits are concerned, will the free energy crowd learn that there ain't no magic power multiplier in a ressonant circuit!

    The rest of the document is a bunch of garbage, starting with the sentance following the one I quoted.

    Farlander is right about one thing, it does get "interesting" around page seven or so. More of the same old practice of slinging phrases around without any regard for what they actually mean. More holding up of other charlatains as authoratative experts. And, of course, the begging for money to buy exotic (and highly dangerous) materials.
     
  4. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Why bother posting if you have no insight other than "nobody should try this." I posted the link and the picture for technical review. If you would, imagine yourselves as a professional review panel, and imagine me as the curious inquisitor who wants to know if an idea could work. You can explain what you predict would occur, offer improvements, and save a lot of time.

    I earnestly believe we have an obligation to investigate any claims of overunity. Of course motives should be considered, but as for panacea university, I see no registration fee, only donations accepted, does that not seem appropriate for a site devoted to open sourcing free energy? This site spawns from www.panacea-bocaf.org (Building Our Children a Future)

    Please see this video
    http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=9195208486083207960&hl=en-AU
     
  5. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
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    Investigate, maybe. Believe, not on your life. I'd rather believe in magic. Come to think of it, same thing. Physics is more interesting.
     
  6. Ron H

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 14, 2005
    7,050
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    Farlander, if I told you that, if you come to my house, I can show you that the sun comes up in the west, would you drop everything and come over to see it? No? Why not? I'll bet it's because you don't believe me. You probably know with 100% certainty that it's impossible. It would be a waste of your time.
    For that same reason, I don't spend my time investigating claims of overunity.
     
  7. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Clinging to ignorance so you can continue believing in ascientific garbage is not impressive. I skimmed through the PDF on the "Ravi Cell" - it's simply laughable. Nothing but a scam. More manipulations of Meyer's work - this time with two 555's and a FET.

    Same for that silly spark plug stuff. I got a laugh out of the rocking bicycle frame.

    Things seem to have reached an impasse - you can't get results without knowledgeable help, and you can't make the devices work with that help. Perhaps we know more than you are willing to accept - that these various devices are not supposed to function. All the furiously written text is not to explain how they work, but to put you in a frame of mind to support their "research". They are all money-extracting machines, period.
     
  8. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    I apologise for my ambiguity. I did not intend to discourage anyone from experimentation. I simply wanted to point out that it won't work.

    And I gave you one. "It's a bunch of garbage."
    It is my professional opinion that over-unity scams are a waste of time, for all the reasons already given in all these threads.
    We did. You ignored it.

    I agree. And we should persue prosecution for those behind such scams. No con-man should be allowed to escape the law.
    It seems like a scam to me. "Please send me money so I can buy very expensive magnets which happen to be illegal in the US."

    I didn't bother watching your video. I've spent enough time on these diversions already.

    Again, if you want to learn about circuitry, we are here to help. But I, for one, will waste no more time reading the drivel of those who refuse to learn basic science.

    I know you want this, Farlaner. I know you care about children and desire a sustainable future for the human race. But you would have much better luck making your contribution if you first learn how the universe actually does work. I've told you this before.

    It is up to you whether you do the gritty and unglamorous work of truly learning, or whether you stick your head in the sand and dream of over-unity schemes. I'll be waiting here in the real world if you have any real-world questions.
     
  9. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    You guys are right. It simply won't work, it can't, the laws of physics are concrete and there is no such thing as overunity. BTW our world is flat and also the center of the universe, and that's a fact Jack.

    If you told me the sun rose in the west, I would investigate, without spending any money. If you were a liar, then I agree that you should be punished.

    I have learned so much and probably the most important thing I've learned is you can never learn enough. There will always be more knowledge to gain in any field and I plan on devoting a large portion of my life to continuing the study of these concepts. We haven't figured everything out yet! So needless to say it's discouraging to hear all the negativity, but I chose here, a non-overunity forum, to get real facts and opinions from people less easily swayed by passion and con artists.

    One question about motives: why would this guy, Herman Anderson, who worked as an engineer for Skunk Works and NASA, want to tarnish his reputation during his last years by claiming he had a water car?
    http://waterpoweredcar.com/herman.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  10. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    You miss the point, the world is not flat, and overunity doesn't exist. Claiming either is true is the same thing, it is like believing in magic. Just because many people believe in all three doesn't make it true.

    The universe has rules. It has only been 400 years that civilization recognized such, the reason we have come so far is the recognition of this simple fact and started working with them instead of clinging to what we would like to be true.

    Personally I think God has allowed for miracles, but only if you work within the system and speak the language of mathematics. It is one of the reasons I like electronics.
     
  11. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    You need to read critically. Herman worked with an engineer. If he has been an engineer of any flavor whatever, the site would have touted it very loudly. To be in a defense contractor's offices in any capacity, you had to have a security clearance. That meant low turnover, even for janitors. Please also note the absence of mentions of schools attended and degrees earned.

    Nothing in the splash pages rises above the level of misleading or outright lie. Or perhaps you have information on how the addition of a neutron to a hydrogen nucleus aids combustion? He is also the sole human being claiming to have made the stuff.

    Pretty impressive for a possible ex-janitor who used to clean a mechanical engineer's office.

    You need to read more of the stuff from old PU. Even Ravi - he of the "improved" Meyer electrolyzer - admits that running an engine on the stuff will wreck it in a week. 30,000 miles might be considered a bit of a stretch given that information. Or you can just wonder who is lying about what, and in what degree. The certainty is that they are not telling anything like the truth.

    If the various scam artists wouldn't contradict each other in such significant ways, it would take possibly 5 minutes longer to spot the lies and fabrications.
     
  12. steveb

    Senior Member

    Jul 3, 2008
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    I have some thoughts. I've read through all of this and some other links on the MRA devices. It's actually very entertaining to read. Unfortunately, there are various contradicting explanations of how it works. Some explanations sound very scientific, but really do not explain any known effect that could convert surrounding energy into significant usable energy. Other explanations are based on pseudo-science notions. So basically, they are not providing any evidence that a reasonable person can rely on to make a judgement.

    There is an interesting video of Dr. Bass demonstrating overunity energy. However, he is measuring current and not power. Also, he is using inaccurate current meters. He compares 180 mA output current with 160 mA input current. The difference is comparable to the experimental error, so proves nothing, even if the voltage on each side is the same, as he seems to imply by doing that measurement.

    It's possible he is just ignorant because if he really were trying to scam us, he would have shown better equipment with measurements of both voltage and current. Or, maybe he is just trying to scam the ignorant, but wants to maintain plausible deniability. He can claim he demonstrated overunity current gain, and people just misunderstood him. I really can't say which, since I don't know him, but I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Bottom line is there is no evidence that we here (who have spent most our lives studying science) can believe. We have learned, from experience, one of the most valuable life lessons. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You are correct to be optimistic and to keep an open mind, but when you do, you must have the above quote in mind. Before you drink the "snake-oil", you should know its composition, understand the reasons why it will help you and see the data that proves it won't hurt you. And, that applies whether it is offered from a sidewalk salesman, or your personal physician.

    By the way, I recommend the science fiction book " The Gods Themselves" by Isaac Asimov. It's about the discovery of over-unity energy created by tapping potentials between two other universes or dimensions - similar to tapping heat energy from hot and cold bodies. The power draw ends up changing the laws of physics in all three universes and threatens the existence of all life. You know, Dr. Asimov was a scientist himself, but could imagine the possibility of a newly found energy source. So, it's not crazy to dream of possible new discoveries, but be pragmatic too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  13. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    The particular logical fallacy chosen is an interesting one. I thought to classify it as modus tollens, but it is actually more the opposite of modus tollens. Farlander claims the antecedent to be true because the consequent is false. :confused:

    Perhaps it would help if I were to re-arrange Farlander's claim: "The world is not flat nor the center of the universe, therefore overunity exists and the laws of physics are not concrete." Ah. I get it now. :) The fallacy is false analogy.

    Thank you for the excercise, Farlander! It is not often I run across such convuluted logical fallacies.:cool:
     
  14. wr8y

    Active Member

    Sep 16, 2008
    232
    1
    You guys are too kind.

    It reads like something that Captain "Woo-Woo"* would write.










    * Richard Hoagland
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  15. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
    158
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    You're welcome! I aim to provoke.

    I came across this next bit at another forum. It's way beyond me but maybe one of you guys understand it or know somebody who could. Please pass it along if you feel so enticed.


    A frequent criticism of extracting energy from Casimir cavities using gas atoms is that the energy required to push the gas into the Casimir cavity will at least equal the energy released by the photon. This argument is only an issue for those who believe the hydrino actually achieves a sub-zero state orbital and is non-relativistic. I contend that the reactionary forces are translated 90 degrees to the temporal axis where this method FORCES normally chaotic virtual particles to organize boundary conditions with gas molecules that formed while inside the Casimir cavity. The subzero like radius of the orbital was non radiative because it didn't really get smaller -the boundary condition holding the electron away from the nucleus got wider on the time axis and the electron orbital simply remained stationary relative to the boundary now distributed differently to reflect the change in quadric volume inside these exclusion fields. the electron remains at -13.6 eV ground state momentum. If the atom exits the field without forming a molecule it will simply untwist back to normal. Dr Mills, Dr Moddel and Dr Haisch all failed to realize you need a covalent bond to occur between these gas atoms while inside the exclusion field or you gain nothing. The energy gain is only for bonds formed while the atoms are submerged as far as possible on the time axis. The gain is provided by virtual particles forming organized boundaries with the newly formed molecule's orbitals which are locked into their temporal orientation by the covalent bond. these orientations are preserved by the covalent bond but while exiting the cavity experience increasing opposition from virtual particles that normally keep orbitals swept back into a path of least resistance to the time stream as it curves between the Casimir cavity and normal space or even between normal space and an event horizon. The new molecules orbital orientations find themselves interleaved into the time stream instead of being swept to the shore line like normal matter. At some point the covalent bond will be broken by the increasing boundary potentials and these "temporal shells" will all collapse in a release of signature black light plasma. Since this is already so speculative let me compare this to a related story about an event horizon....
    Johnny learns his father's space cruise ship is being sucked into a black hole- unlike most disasters this will be a lifetime tragedy due to relativity -although mere moments for his father it will be hundreds of years before the spaceship is actually crushed by the gravitational forces seeping through the inertial dampers. Johnny however is calm because his new invention multiplies a spaceship drives power and dampers far beyond previous levels and he knows that time is now his friend! After years of preparation Johnny and a rescue ship dive into the event horizon toward the doomed ship - As the doomed ship grows larger Johnny initiates the device that will lock their shields together so they can drag the crippled ship out of the gravity well. The rescue ship is able to lock onto the crippled ship on the first attempt and they quickly combine their navigation and engines into a single dual ship mode. they start pulling away from the black holes gravitational grasp and are already approaching the point where the 2 ships first merged marking their actual starting point on their return. Johnny knows time is traveling faster outside the event horizon and wants to get his father home while there is still family left that will recognize him. As the dual ship climbs the gravity well it is pushed by temporal forces forming boundary conditions with the dual ships merged fields. Both ships have molecular structures twisted on the time axis by the curved space inside the well which would simply untwist if each ship returned individually but the two fields forming the dual ship bond are now locked one against the other unable to twist back to normal even as the dual ship continues to climb the well returning to flat space. The resistance seems to increase in steps and Johnny hopes both ships will still have escape velocity when the binding field breaks and both ships break free. With a flash Johnny's ship suddenly emerges from the black hole and they are immediately contacted by the rescued ship already waiting for them. His father's face appears on the com to tell Johnny only weeks have elapsed since Johnny dove into the black hole and to chide him about taking so long :_) Apparently dad and crew have been waiting 3 days for them to reappear. Johnny then realized the implications of his father’s communication. He assumed that the rescue attempt would return all travelers to a point at least twenty years after the rescue missions entry into the black hole but somehow they were all returned only weeks later. The temporal resistance that eventually tore apart the binding field of the dual ship had combined with the ships vector so that the dual ship did not follow the curved gravitational well of the black hole back to normal flat space. The dual ship had experienced true temporal navigation, the fields acted as temporal rudders their molecular orbitals unable to twist freely with the changing curvature of the well the orbitals became interleaved in the time stream forming boundary conditions with vacuum fluctuations which can lift or submerge a ship from its time frame. the orientations once frozen by the binding field retained an orientation, a resistive rudder angle, that favored that temporal coordinate which combined with ships drive to form a composite temporal spatial vector submerging the dual ship into the plane of the gravity well on the shortest return path to flat space. Johnny wondered what would have happened if the field had not broken - if the two ships had escaped the event horizon with their binding field intact ..would they appear like tiny spaceships still miles away or should I say hours away since they would still be displaced on the temporal axis not the normal spatial axis. Would they be torn apart by temporal force the moment they dropped their shields?
    The Casimir effect mirrors this anomaly but unlike an event horizon where relative time appears slow the relative time inside a Casimir cavity appears very fast, hence my suspicion that catalysts are just an indicator of Casimir cavities or outcroppings of Casimir geometry. Two hydrogen atoms enter an exclusion field. If they form a covalent bond and try to diffuse back out of the cavity as a molecule they have a similar dilemma. Their orbital orientations are locked when the covalent bond forms so they are unable to twist parallel to the changes in curved space as the molecule exits the field. the molecule will either return still "twisted" on the temporal axis or the virtual particles will tear the covalent bond apart and release the signature black light plasma as it accelerates through the equivalent of sub zero state shells -actually temporal shells -perhaps 7 more shells to maintain symmetry and each a possible family suggesting a 149 combinations when mixed with normal space shells. On the other hand if the molecule escapes unbroken we actually have the more desirable outcome since it would make possible all the science fiction devices described in Johnny's story by providing the building block "oar" scientists have needed since the beginning of space exploration. Experimenting with larger more complex "twisted" molecules with less combustible atoms may lead to this holy grail. The research is only in its infancy and great care must be taken using rules based on concepts like Plank’s constant to only compare matter in the same time frame which an exclusion field or event horizon are not.
    Fran
    http://www.byzipp.com/energy/
     
  16. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Also, please see this thread about the possibility of scalar waves in a Meyers device. The presumption in summation is that two sine waves 180 degrees out of phase create another sine wave that affects spatial temporal contraction/expansion.

    http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6926.0
     
  17. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    To paraphrase Asimov: Just because you don't understand it doesnt mean it isn't gibberish.

    I concede Mills is a much better snake oil salesman than Meyers ever could have become. Mills has bilked folk out of enough money to buy a very nice facility in New Jersey. He might have to hock it to pay his defense lawyers, though. The US Patent Office seems to have learned from their mistakes, and has been revoking Mills' patents. I suspect his investors will be suing him soon.:cool:

    You want real panacea? Figure out a cost-effective way to harvest kudzu and water chestnut for bio-gas digesters!;)
     
  18. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    And if we all chant together while meditating on the alignment our collective chakras, we can contact the ancient spirits of the wise folk of Atlantis.

    Give me a break already!:rolleyes:

    You can make diesel fuel out of old dead fryer oil! For pennies!
     
  19. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Actually, the quasi-information presented and the sites linked to are not provocative at all - they merely illustrate how easy it is for a scam to run on the internet.

    Before the internet, these people would have had to do their demonstrations in public, because only publicity generated by the apparatus would gain a large enough audience to generate income.

    The problems were severe - somebody always asked questions, or could demonstrate that the whole thing was a scam. Using the mails made the scammers liable for federal penalties. So most of this stuff was pretty small time.

    There does not seem to be any functioning control mechanism for scams on the internet, so we have seen a major increase in this stuff. A nice site and videos, plus dire warnings about conspiracies to suppress the knowledge seems to be the effective formula. A general feeling that science is much too difficult for the average person to understand helps them enormously.

    It is interesting to note that none of the sites can be really communicated with. Instead, they get your email - a practice known as pharming. You have self-identified as gullible enough to be deluged with emails from the dozens of scamming sites, all of them needing contributions to keep the "research" going. But nothing at all ever appears as a national news item.

    That is because no functioning device is ever going to come into being. They are very effective at maintaining a blanket of babblegab at every turn. Just Google something like "water power scam" and the majority of the sites that come up are water power sites. It's the old right wing truth - if you repeat a lie often enough and loudly enough, people will come to believe it.

    The significant question is: If the powerful interest, governmental or commercial, is intent on suppressing each and every device, why are the web sites online 24/7? Why are "institutions" like old PU allowed to come together?

    Any reasonable person might conclude that the claims of moneyed interests actively suppressing knowledge is risable. The "knowledge" is as public as it can possibly be. We hear of no mysterious explosions, or of any of these people disappearing in the night.

    As an exersise in frustration, see if you can actually communicate with any of these "researchers". Will any of them answer questions or give clearer explanations of how their various devices work? Can any show a clear path of progress in the process of developing a functioning device?

    If all they want is money, and all you get is bafflegab, you are dealing with scammers.

    The Arthur C. Clarke statement that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is what motivates these scams. No three year old chold can tell why flipping the switch turns on the light. It's just magic. But a little knowledge about elecricity and wires resolves it as technology. Scammers never let the wires show.

    The one advantage the older scamster's products had was that the alcohol content was usualy high enough that you didn't mind so much that it hadn't cured you.
     
  20. electronice123

    Senior Member

    Oct 10, 2008
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    Beenthere is right about a lot of that crap. Those water powered car scams are all over and most of them are just electroylsis units that put out toxic gas or use toxic electrolytes. I'm quite suprised myself that the EPA hasen't stepped in and shut them all down.

    There are however some very smart people who have successfully converted cars and have proven what they've done, a few of them even have patents on their designs and inventions, The 4 most well known are probably:

    1. Stan Meyer
    2. Andrija Puharich
    3. Daniel Dingle
    4. Herman Anderson

    The problem is, if you research this, there really is a huge opposition to any technology that threatens the oil monopoly, It's not a conspiracy theory. This should be obvious, wars have been fought, huge profits are made every year, economies demand energy to function. The oil companies know there product could be rendederd completly worthless with competing technologies, so they do what they can to protect their bottom line!
     
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