Can we get a general consensus on JUST the types of automotive topics that should be out of bounds?

Here are a few:
1) Engine management/controls including remote starting and anti-idling devices. There are obvious legal implications here, such as emissions controls meddling. Remote starting can be unsafe; what if a neutral/park safety switch was incorrectly installed or non-functional, and the vehicle were in gear when started?

A possible exception might be made for vehicles that were manufactured prior to emissions controls.

2) Exterior running lights, such as brake/turn signal/headlamps; the failure of which can lead to obvious safety implications.

3) Braking systems. While primarily mechanical, there are electronic subsystems used for such things as ABS - these are simply beyond the scope of the forum.

4) Other safety systems, such as horns, airbags, seatbelts.

5) Anything that might interfere with the normal operation of the above systems.

 

OK, here's a new thread that I suggest should be one of those "taboo" discussions under 1) above:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=37229
Tapping into the MAP sensor. The way that the OP is proposing to do this would definitely affect the operation of the ECU, affecting emissions, and therefore be illegal in many countries.

 

The two I would discuss is the exterior running lights, though what I am thinking of might be called something else. A common theme with tricked out cars is neon bulbs under the chassis. I see no reason this is wrong (other than color, and the cops will be glad to educate people who don't get it). This may not be exterior running lights, I think they would be considered such.

The other exception is temporary fixes. Having been in the situation I can understand it isn't convenient or possible to fix collision damage immediately. If it is stated these are temporary repairs I think they should be allowed.

How about sound systems adjacent to the horn? I would consider them safe and legal, they were the thing about 20 years ago with the red neck crowd. Not my thing, but legal.

Other modifications I feel are safe are aftermarket window defrosters and (possibly) marque signs. Something not too far off is a speech to text converter, it wold be a logical step to add a scrolling marque in the rear view window so you could ask people to back off (or whatever).

The other items you mentioned seem appropriate.

I feel they should be spelled out in the forum rules.

 

Does it seem like these things come in waves? It's like some other car forum shut down, and they are migrating here.

Then there was the HHO crowd.

Some of it is similar college curriculums I'm sure, all coming here for answers.

 

The two I would discuss is the exterior running lights, though what I am thinking of might be called something else. A common theme with tricked out cars is neon bulbs under the chassis. I see no reason this is wrong (other than color, and the cops will be glad to educate people who don't get it). This may not be exterior running lights, I think they would be considered such.

I'm not actually certain if they are neon or CCFL's. I am also not certain what might happen if they shatter in a crash, where the fuel tank is also ruptured. Can the plasma possibly be a source of ignition? I don't know. If it can be a source of ignition, then we are back to safety issues.

How about the penetration of the body and/or firewall to install the necessary wiring for such lights? If not done properly, using proper grommets, sealant, etc. there could be safety issues.

The other exception is temporary fixes. Having been in the situation I can understand it isn't convenient or possible to fix collision damage immediately. If it is stated these are temporary repairs I think they should be allowed.

Maybe I've missing something, but I don't recall ever seeing such a request. Anyway, anything involving much more than replacing bulbs with the factory specified bulbs or covering a busted taillight with red plastic and some tape is really getting beyond the scope of the forum, methinks.

How about sound systems adjacent to the horn? I would consider them safe and legal, they were the thing about 20 years ago with the red neck crowd. Not my thing, but legal.

I'm talking about the OEM horn. They have to work.

But, if aftermarket horns were installed, then we're back to penetrating the firewall, which would be a safety issue.

Other modifications I feel are safe are aftermarket window defrosters and (possibly) marque signs.

No real objections there.

Something not too far off is a speech to text converter, it wold be a logical step to add a scrolling marque in the rear view window so you could ask people to back off (or whatever).

Well, I'm really not trying to get a list of things that should be allowed, as that list would be ridiculously long.

Just the stuff that for safety and/or legal reasons should be off-limits.

 

I think some of this safety discussion is getting wound up into imaginary or very unlikely dangers. Should we limit discussion to subjects that pose no risk, even if done incorrectly? I don't think so. Although there is no age limit to participate on this site, I think it would be a huge mistake to think we should take on the role of nannys to anyone who comes here and is interested in electronics.

If the subject is not:
1) Illegal or similar (e.g., copyright infringement);
2) Imminently and obviously dangerous to the OP and/or others (e.g., remote detonators, direct mains LEDs, stun guns);
3) Completely crazy (e.g., HHO, overunity); and/or
4) Racist, threatening, and all of the current exclusions of like kind,
then it should be allowed here.

If on the other hand, we want to prevent risks from doing the right thing wrong, then we might insist that OP's take a breathalyzer test before acting on any of the advice given here. Now that I think about it, maybe anyone who posts should be tested.

John

 

I have to agree. We tell people that they can use mains power IF they use a transformer.. Its up to THEM if the heed the warning. I wonder how many dont.

We can tell them "If you run wires through the fire wall, dont use an existing wiring hole and use grommets" (that you can pull from a junkyard by the 100's for $2) or link to a site offering the parts or even Pep Boys.

Not using grommets can lead to failure of the insulation on the wire causing a short to the battery and frame.
But not using a transformer can kill you.

Its also a good idea to see if the vehicle they are working on has yet went through inspection. If not, the inspection station should catch any iffy work.

We can put together something that makes us comfortable, and sticky the thread. We can link to the thread as soon as we realize we are dealing with a vehicle.

I liked the link beenthere used the other day regarding a towtruck driver who had a CB PROFESSIONALLY installed, where the installer did some shoddy work and burned the truck up. People who are modifying there vehicles usually have an emotional attachment to it and will most likely take the steps to avoid seeing there 'baby' incinerated by something they did.
I agree that ecu's should be off limits. That CAN effect the way the car drives, which can put others at risk. That includes throttle POT replacement, break switches, and ignition. Now if they leave these things intact, adding a pot to give a variable brightness to a under car light, thats a possibility. There are other ways of doing this, like using a pickup coil to as the input to the LEDs pwm. We have some bright people here. We can create options that are safe.

If the person modifying there vehicle is willing to short-cut and take chances, while conisdering themselves a noob, how do you think they act on the road? Thats more likely to hurt someone.

If the cars safety systems stay intact, the ecu is not touched (if you back feed voltage into it, a lot of 0s become 1s), and there not trying to convert it into a flying machine(with only our help), We can do this.

 

I think the listing so far is pretty good start.

That being said, I would still put disclaimers on every schematic.



My list of disclaimers include:

• Schematic provided for Training purposes only
• Not responsible for end users construction or use of the circuit
• Voltages exceeding 30 volts can be dangerous

I'm sure others will think of more disclaimers.

Sarge,

On the MAP sensor circuit, the OP didn't say they were using the installed MAP sensor. It is add-on circuit (additional MAP sensor) that activates a relay for some purpose which the OP never explained.

The OPs answer to your question would determine the next step ...

 

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=36908

Is one thread that could have remained, depending on the placement of his LED sticks.

With the police effort, or lack thereof, to enforce inattentive driving rules, no wonder the legislatures are passing silly no cellular phone usage laws. I'm sure we could imagine the LED sticks in the vehicle could contribute to inattentive driving.

Lots of things cause inattentive driving and it starts with the person behind the wheel.

• cellular phone
• changing the radio station
• adjusting the volume on a radio station
• changing out CDs or cassettes or even 8 tracks if you have them
• LED sticks
• talking to the passenger(s)
• reading the newspaper or books
• programming your GPS
• checking out the hot women walking down the street
• and the list goes on and on ....

 

putting eyeliner on WHILE driving...
Reading a MAP, or book, newspaper WHILE driving.
reaching back to whoop the children horseplaying in the back seat.

People are plain stoopid.

 

yes they are retched ... yes they are.

 

I'm not actually certain if they are neon or CCFL's. I am also not certain what might happen if they shatter in a crash, where the fuel tank is also ruptured. Can the plasma possibly be a source of ignition? I don't know. If it can be a source of ignition, then we are back to safety issues.

How about the penetration of the body and/or firewall to install the necessary wiring for such lights? If not done properly, using proper grommets, sealant, etc. there could be safety issues.

We can not take the nanny role in this forum. But everybody is free to give safety advices. So before this discussion cross the borderline into futile. If a gadget like blue-lines (blue light under car) is legal to mount on a car. We should help the OP. Else in a polite manner say that, sorry we can not help. In this forum we do not say, we only allow to use 1 filter capacitor up to 2200uF. Because if you mount them wrong they may explode and hurt you. That would be seen as pure nonsense. We must use a common sense. Then in doubt we can ask control question. As an example it could be that the OP want to do some modifications on a car not meant public roads(like a show car), and hence do not have to road legal.
I think we very quickly should come to consensus and make short list without to many but/then this happened then it might cause, and so on. In Europa car modifications are much more regulated than in USA. But as an example it is still legal to mount extra driving lights, if they are approved (E labelled ). And a question on the best placemant for the control relay is well inside the scope of this forum.

 

How about the penetration of the body and/or firewall to install the necessary wiring for such lights? If not done properly, using proper grommets, sealant, etc. there could be safety issues.

I can understand the arguement about the firewall, but penetrating (drilling) the body? Fact is, if someone does something stupid they kill their car, this is not a safety issue.

I don't consider body mods a problem overall.

I just want to keep it real concerning safety. People wire things into their car all the time, I don't think it is an automatic DQ.

• Emissions controls I agree with because all of us have to breath the crap they output. Texas in general and Dallas in specific is likely to be twanged by the EPA in the near future.
• Anything to keep the engine running with the key turned off is also no good, since more than one safety system has to be bypassed in doing so.
• Firewall and body seem to be over the top. In the past most safety issues have to do with kids, but now we are protecting adults (who else owns cars?) from themselves? If someone is asking advice then as a matter of course we would mention the grommets and other issues that would affect reliability.

The other automotive issues basically translate in protecting other people, not the OP, if you really think about it. Things like emissions controls, signals, and stuff that can cause run away acceleration are a danger to the public.


Thing is, we regularly discuss subjects that are much more dangerous, there is a thread out there dealing with creating a corona. This implies very high voltage, but because the OP is a professional and an adult we go with it. Same thing on machine shop tools such as minuature milling machines.

 

I
Things like emissions controls, signals, and stuff that can cause run away acceleration are a danger to the public.

That is the crux of the problem. How can you know a priori what may cause run away acceleration?

So far I as I know, the best minds at Toyota, the best plaintiff attorneys in the USA, and the combined wizardry of our government officials don't have a clue as to what all really causes it. Should we prohibit any discussion of floor mats, or maybe just floor mats with blinking LED's attached?

Once we start stretching for what may be a safety issue, there is nothing left that can be discussed. Just think for a moment, what items on a modern car, say a 2009 car with Northstar, could be modified with absolutely no chance of creating a safety issue? On that point, there is a current thread dealing with a low fuel warning (
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=37228). Is that a safety issue? Arguably it is very much so, yet the discussion goes on.

John

 

Where else can someone go to find/do electronics safely, other than an electronics forum?

Surely the whole point of a forum such as this is for those who know to help those who don't do it properly?

On a slightly different note a large proportion of questions are only theoretical and we find later that the poster is only doing a simulation, not actually going to build anything material.

 

I think if too much gets prohibited, the usefulness of this site diminishes and we begin the long, slow, death spiral.

Yes the prohibited topics list should be short. Yes, safety issues are a concern. I agree we can't be everyone's nanny.

This isn't the only site that dispenses advice on a regular basis. I'm sure some OPs have visited alot of the others before ending up here, or will visit the others if they don't get a response here.

In the end, it's up to the individual responder on what they wish to say.

It's still the people here that make this site great.

I visited JC Whitney's website and looked at the neon and led accessories.

 

I say post wht ever they want, If you don't like it then don't reply to it.
Or just say so. like,

"I have no interested in this topic or it is beyond my legality, there for my conscious does not allow me to get involved in these kind of projects" ...Simple.

or.

"I cannot reply due to my limitations, have patience while some one with experience or a certified technician responses ".

After that we'll see and if the mod's doesn't like the topic or sees it is beyond the scope of this forum or the OP's action might destroy the world, he can lock it.

No need to argue about. Keep it simple and safe.

 

To some extent I think it is correct to moderate or ban some topics. In most cases it will be things that are unsafety to do, like devices for "zapping" people. But also questions regarding topics that are evidently unlegal. You will probably not finds topics regarding growing marihuana in a gardening forum

 

There was a thread where a kid put foil on his door bell button and hooked an extension cord to the foil. His home power was 220vAC

He was asking how to boost the voltage to make it hurt more.

He said tazers are 10,000v but my outlets are only 220. How do I boost it to hurt more. I want to prank my friends.

Now that is plain STOOPID. Unsafe and immature.

We are a good judge of people. I dont think there is gonna be a problem giving advice. You arn't the only person reading the thread and if someone else senses something different, they let it be known.

There is a lot of info on the internet. Good and Bad. I would rather give someone a safer way of doing a project than sending them over to a board or search response that doesn't care.

Make a sticky. In close call cases, link to the sticky and hit the "report post".

If it is a standard iffy, link to the sticky.

We consist of some smart folks, we can solve very complex problems.. we can solve this one.

 

I am on both sides of this issue.

We deal with this type of stuff all the time here at AAC.
We can visualize the outcome when hooking up a simple or complex circuit because we have done it so often.

case in point.

A mechanic was installing a Bosch-type 12 volt relay. We have all used these things and we are all pretty confident and comfortable that we know what will happen the first time we power up a relay circuit.

not so for this mechanic.

He was installing the relay in-line with a "trombetta" throttle solenoid.
He called the tech-line for assistance.
the help on the phone told the mechanic "30 to the battery 85 to ground, 86 from the wire that was going to the throttle solenoid, and 87 to the lug on the throttle solenoid that the wire you put on 86 came from.

piece of cake except for all the assumptions.

The voice from the tech-support line assumed the relay was the same type that was normally used on the company's equipment.

The mechanic assumed that all relays of this type were the same.

The result was devastating.

No fuse was added between the battery and the relay.
The terminals of the relay were not the same correlation as the "typical" "Bosch-type" relay.
the post numbers were not labeled.

When the mechanic hooked it up how he thought he was instructed, the throttle would always be pulled to on. For some reason he started swapping the wires around.... and direct short....
before he could reach the battery to disconnect it, the harnesses were in flames and all other fuel-moist crap (Deutz diesel) laying on the machine started burning, a battery explosion, it was ugly, it was a mess. An expensive mess.

attached is the result to the Deutz Diesel.
The throttle solenoid sits there with it's bare wires glaring right back at you. The relay burned to oblivion.

Also attached is the Form 1U relay in the datasheet of the relay he was using. 1C is what he THOUGHT he was using.

Long story shortened,

Sometimes we think we may be helping and we are all here because we want to be helpful, and a bit proud of our knowledge and experiences.

We want to be sure that when we communicate with those we are helping, that every step in a potentially dangerous or lethal situation is painstakingly gone over ad nauseam.


This is the finest forum on the web, with the most devoted and talented contributors available.
It is sad to have the double-edged sword with the simple automotive stuff.

it is a conundrum....