Name this motor

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
Could you reverse engineer the circuit board? Even if it is broken during foam removal could you get enough information to have new boards etched? Then you could offer a complete replacement board, and make some money in the process.
 

Thread Starter

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
1) Replacement control modules are available on the Internet for about $200.
2) The programming is, "proprietary" as usual.

The problem worth solving is buying 1/3 HP motors for $500 and their MTBF being less than 5 years. My math shows that these $500 motors save about 70 cents per month in electricity costs but a replacement motor will need about 100 years to pay for itself (if no labor costs are involved) (based on 7 months per year of air conditioning use). Even if my math is off by a factor of 10, these motors are not a bargain.
 

Thread Starter

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
Still researching these motors. Here is a comment from York Central Tech Talk:

Joe E Goodart says:
December 30, 2013 at 8:10 pm

PSC motors when used in their design parameters are far more reliable than ECM. They can last 20 years. ECM’s fail all the time, 7 years is a long time for them to last, just Google it, Don’t get me wrong they are a good idea but they are not ready for prime time. Give then 10 years. Manufactures buy them from china and they don’t obviously have the engineering resources to understand how deal with Asian manufacturers. So ask yourself this… is saving a few bucks a year on electricity worth a early $1000 dollar repair? I personally will not consider any upgrade till they bring reliability to at least 30K hrs. 100k would be on Par with good PSC’s. These HVAC system may not be good for anyone, including independent repair service companies.

Several from HVAC-talk.com:


KevinAdv
Professional Member

ECM Condenser fan Motors Why

What is the point of a ECM condenser fan motor on a non variable speed unit. So we can get a ear full when it costs 2-3 times as much as a normal one.

And...There have been several threads about these motors failing here and I know my neighbor had to have one replaced in the spring when his house turned 3 years old.

Is there a basic problem with these motors? Is there a better replacement than the OEM device.

And...It is an x-13 motor in a Comfortmaker/ICP AHU. He said that his company found 3 of them so far this week that failed. The motor is less than 5 years old so covered under warranty, but labor to replace is not so I am out that cost. Motors are backordered with a 5 day lead time I am told.


catmanacman
Professional Member*

We have replaced a crap load of the x13 motors . All brands use the same motor just programmed different

I replaced one of these yesterday on a 3 year old unit. Oh, buy the way it had a Zebra surge protector installed. I wonder if there are possibly other problems with this module other than the thermister? It went out in the 18-24 month time frame that may others have stated.

And...I talked to the salesman and he said they were having lots of problems with the X-13. Another reason for customers to purchase a labor warranty.


mr.charles
Professional Member

Got another X13, been changing alot of them lately. my company A doesn't replace modules, replace the whole thing. I get tired of explaining to customers about them damn x13's i just printed off some flyers and let them read while i do my thing. most just shake their heads and mumble.

my all time favorite x13 motor question im asked:

cust: so im going to have to replace this thing every few years?

me: holding back laughs and grins::thinking, damn right, you will: reply, no ma'am/sir improvements have been made to the motor/module design/layout blah blah blah..

And...Since this company has replaced 3 this week and several neighbors have had problems with this motor over the past year it seems like there is aa major problem here. The obvious question: is there a recall on them?

___________________________________________________________________

This is the same story I heard from local contractors and the desk clerks at the local wholesale houses. Practical experience shows that ECM motors have a MTBF of less than 7 years. I recommend that you avoid these motors and multi-speed compressors as long as you can. Our legislators might keep increasing the legal minimum efficiency for air conditioners until we are all forced into buying $500 fan motors to save $5 a year in electrical power, but do the best you can until then.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
I have the old PSC motor in my HVAC unit, After considering installing a GE ECM motor but seeing the failures and cost of repair, I am looking at a 3 phase induction motor with a 1ph supply VFD, the cheaper frequency control version, rather than the sensorless vector.
Most have the ability to be set up for various pre-set speeds rather than pot etc.
Max.
 
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Thread Starter

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
I am looking at a 3 phase induction motor with a 1ph supply VFD,
Just be sure you get at least one microprocessor involved in running each fan motor! :D

No. Wait. I was joking.
I just spent most of a week finding out that Electronically Controlled Motors are the worst thing that happened to air conditioners this century. You have a way to make that work? Please post in public!

I assume strantor could put together a combination that would last until the bearings start coughing up their balls, that's his day job. I also assume I can't buy the parts to do that for $200 or $300. If you figure out a reliable replacement scheme for this $500 motor, pleeease (pretty please) post the results! We need that kind of help, here in the lightning capital of America.

My internal Don Quixote thanks you (and several others) for watching and learning. The best way to fight shoddy designs at exorbitant prices is education.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,619
Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge and test equipment required to set up the optimum heating/cooling custom fan speeds for a specific HVAC environment, but I don't see why someone could not set up a sophisticated system with the type of sensors available now using a VFD and 3ph induction motor, the GE ECM is virtually that except a P.M motor.
Just letting this idea percolate, I believe the typical wiring from control to furnace/HVAC etc is 5 wires?
If this became a problem if greater control was needed, many VFD's have a MODBUS interface, so just 2 wires would be need to send all command from a little intelligent control/sensor unit, Pic etc?
Also VFD's have configurable outputs, that could be used if necessary at the motor end for other switching commands, the possibilities seem endless and it may be the way it is done in the future, no more cost than now.
I think that the short sightedness of GE in making their motor non-repairable is the driving force for someone to invent an alternative.
Max.
 

Thread Starter

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
In this particular case, 240 VAC right off the circuit breakers to the motor and a 24 VAC, "run" command to the motor. This brainy motor controller can be programmed to ramp up to full torque over several minutes and the end point is, "constant torque". That means you can attach any size squirrel cage (at least big enough) and the motor can't possibly overload. A big, slow fan is more efficient than a small fast fan (for the same CFM).

Now it is established that the motor can't overload and x number of watts will be driving the fan. As the air filter gets clogged up or the squirrel cage loads up with dirt, the fan runs faster to inflict the same amount of energy on moving the air. Viola, constant CFM. This can save about 70 cents a month on your electric bill. If the motor lasts long enough to save that money up to buy a new motor, it is a net profit for the customer. At 70 cents a month and 7 months of air conditioning use, that's about $5 per year. A $500 motor would justify its cost in 100 years, if labor was free. However, It is rare for an air conditioner to last 30 years, so if you can get the motor to last for 30 years, that would be, "good enough" for almost every machine.

ps, the air flow required is 400 CFM per ton of air conditioning, give or take about 20% if humidity control is a major goal. For instance, a printing shop must have low humidity even if the Fahrenheit control has to be sacrificed to achieve that goal.
 
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