More energy out than in.

Discussion in 'Physics' started by Theoryofrelativity, Aug 28, 2007.

  1. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    Very simple test, take a heavy pulley or wheel balanced on a stand to spin free. Attach a small 12 or 24 volt motor to this wheel with on and off switch. Balance and wire an alternator just like a car to a 12v or 24v system. When reached peak speed turn it off, the system continues to spin, the alternator continues to turn and therefore you have more energy out than in at this point in time. Yes I understand, it takes way more energy to get to peak speed and when you turn it off that it will simply regain some of what it has lost. But at the point in time the system is off there is more electrical energy out than put back into the system. I believe that Noethers theorem is wrong, I think that the conservation of energy and laws of physics do change over time. I believe that this simple test will prove that you can achieve more output than input by means of propelling the pulley with a series of on and offs. The on must continue to propel the pulley and never stop, and when switched off it must spin twice as long as on. The measurement of speed, time, and work load. The potential energy is the energy at rest. The E in E=mc2. Just a thought and thanks all about circuits I love reading the threads.
     
  2. recca02

    Senior Member

    Apr 2, 2007
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    i did not quite get the experiment.
    so tell me what r we basically doing.
    r we rotating a wheel using motor and turning motor off at some time then the wheel powers the alternator? m i correct
    if this is the case then i think the theory is a failure -i'll explain how once i know what exactly the experiment(did i get the experiment correct?)
    (u might like to have a look at a thread which taked about free energy brigade)
     
  3. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    As the system the system is building up to peak speed, energy is being stored (in the same way as potential energy is stored when an object is raised to a height). When the source is removed the system continues to spin because of the stored energy - there is no violation of the Conseravtion of Energy.

    Can you give more details of why you think what you are saying?

    Dave
     
  4. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    I kind of put a lot of Questions smashed together in one post. Well I just wanted to say I believe you can get more work energy out than putting in (over time). When the motor is turned off after it reaches peak speed will continue to turn With a heavy pulley to counter the torque needed to continue to rotate a basic small alternator it will continue to have output of electrical energy even when the motor is turned off. Over time and a series of turning the system on and off allowing this system to run twice as long off than on will have a greater output than input. I'm just saying that over time the laws of basic physics with this concept is untrue. Propelling the wheel not letting it stop. Just an Idea. What do you think Dave?
     
  5. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    And you too Recca02 I would like to read your input.
     
  6. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    The question is: Your not supposed to get out more energy than put in. In this case I believe the electrical energy out can be far greater than the electrical energy in. That is breaking the laws of work and virtual work. Maybe not Conservation. I don't know. Maybe it is late and I am psychotic. But I would like your input and I hope it is not too much a waste of your time.
     
  7. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    Like I said in my previous post, energy is stored in the system whilst the motor is running. When the motor stops this stored energy is imparted to keep the system in motion until the system comes to rest and all stored energy is expended. As an analogy, when you raise an object you are putting in energy to raise the object - this energy is stored as potential energy - remove what is holding the object at height (analogous to stopping the motor in your example) and the object will fall (continue to expend energy once the source has stopped) because of the energy stored. There is no violation of the Conservation of Energy.

    Dave
     
  8. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    I accept that you believe it to be true, but have you tried to measure it?

    Dave
     
  9. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    The "experiment" simply demonstrates the storage of energy in the pulley, belt and alternator rotor. A measurement of electricity produced will show losses to friction and inefficiency in the alternator windings.

    I suspect the length of spin after propulsive power is removed is because there is no load on the system. Producing a potential at the alternator terminals is not the same as doing actual work, like running the drive motor.
     
  10. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    There is no load on the system just to a battery, but the idea is to use the power stored in the battery until a set low and then let it replenish itself. The kinetic energy of the belt pulley and rotor I believe would not effect the outcome do to the weight, time, speed and momentum vs torque and heat. Which I think torque is minimal and the system can cool once replenished power is restored to a optimum level. (Once restored it can stop). But is it possible? The measurements would have to be of the gage of wire. Input to peak speed, then at peak speed off to set time of on and measured,(this if form battery to motor and then alternator to battery). What do you think?
     
  11. recca02

    Senior Member

    Apr 2, 2007
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    from what i gather,
    something i will like to clear out first,
    unless u load the alternator with a electrical load(provide path for current flow)
    no opposing torque will be given by alternator(save for some losses due to eddy currents and hysteresis in core)

    the massive pulley or wheel that u talk about is something we use in internal combustion engine known as flywheel-a rotating object with high inertia that does the work of storing the energy from power strokes to drive the rest of the strokes(this is what Mr Dave already stated).this is analogous to having it powered by motor in short pulses as u suggest.

    if u neglect friction (air and mech parts) once the wheel reaches full speed in these ideal circumstances the motor now will not consume any further power as it is now running freely at its rated speed this is akin to no load operation of motor in which again there are only no load losses(iron and copper) which should not be there in ideal circumstances.
    under these conditions if there are no losses the wheel will run till infinity and we will have voltage at alternator terminal till infinity ---but this is not energy it is only its potential to do work whenever load is connected across alternator which will send a current which by lenz's law will oppose the rotating field and hence the rotating wheel. and the wheel will stop once it has lost its energy that was given to it by motor.

    if however motor is running in short bursts it will have to somehow provide that much energy which is required by load or u will get fluctuating o/p at alternator whose energy will be equal to motor o/p-losses(no gain).

    for time motor is off : the wheel will lose its energy to load applied on rotor
    and loses speed as well which means less o/p voltage and hence less power to load as p=VI.

    when motor is put on again it will have to spend energy to rotate the load which will be extracted from supply as excess current now will flow in motor.

    so whatever power u'll get at o/p of alternator will have to supplied by motor supply and it will also have to supply for the losses too.
    moral of the story only losses no gain
     
  12. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    How else could it be measured, time (off) double than that of (on) once reached peak speed. I believe the key is low torque, to keep a low heat, momentum to measured time. Propelled until battery recharged (stop) use some of stored energy and start process again. I don't know if it will work. But I know this I hooked up a scooter electric motor to a 12" OD pulley and a 1" OD alternator pulley and it took seconds to get to top speed, and several minutes for it to stop. That is what give me the Idea. It was 24v motor but I only hooked it up to 12v. I haven't taken any measurements. Just wandering what your thoughts are.
     
  13. recca02

    Senior Member

    Apr 2, 2007
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    that just sums it up the energy stored in your battery would not even measure up to what your motor consumed in that few minutes of time it was on for.

    power is the rate at which energy is consumed /generated.
    a 210 MW generator can charge a small battery in micro seconds and a small motor can keep consuming this stored energy for eons if it does not have to power a mechanical load.the exact opposite is also possible with the power ratings changed. which happened to be the case with you.
    (m i getting your experiment right?)
     
  14. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    I believe you have hit the nail on the head. But the motor wasn't on for minutes it was only on for seconds and rotation was minutes after the motor was off. The battery itself used very little energy to get it to top speed, but that was without a load. But you have opened my eyes and woke me up. I need to rethink and maybe come up with a different Idea. Thank you for your input.
     
  15. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    Ok I thought about it and come up with a solution. I didn't use all the elements to complete the process. Here is an Idea for ya. I didn't think about gravity or air. Here is what is different the wheel or pulley will have to rotate in a half circle, gravity and a tension bar for down and compressed air for up. Should be able to rotate multiple alternators. The dc motor would not be attached to the wheel or pulley system it would run the compressor and the compressor would feel a tank or tanks with compressed air. The compressed air would push a piston that raises the wheel then gravity, weight, and tension will drop it along on a rail that turns the wheel. This time weight, gravity, time, tension,speed, air pressure and time off vs heat, torque and time on. The key this time would be how long could the piston raise the wheel with compressed air before the compressor turns on? How long will it run before it turns off? Ok I have posted another crazy Ideal and I am going to name it this time. (propelled Motion) not to be confused with perpetual motion. So what measurements do you think should be done or should I just give up and leave you guys alone? More energy out than in this time? "who knows" just tell me what ya think.
     
  16. recca02

    Senior Member

    Apr 2, 2007
    1,211
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    first thing that comes to mind with compressor is they have got awfully low efficiency-the other day calculation revealed only 19%.
    i will edit this post for the explanation l8er(sort of busy now).
    but from waht i understand of ur experiment it seems similar to an ic engine piston cylinder arrangement with crank shaft connected to fly wheel.
    do u think your vehicle gives you more energy out than in--ic engines efficiency is awfully low about 66 % heat is totally wasted and that is not the only wastage.
     
  17. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
    16
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    It is my theory that you can get out more energy than put in and even store it for use without fossil fuel, or wind power or solar power. The system will maintain itself.
     
  18. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
    16
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    The system has no Crankshaft, Starts with a pulley system that will be run by belt that turns alternators. The pulley will be set up on a track in the form of a slanted half moon, the pulley will rotate on this track in a circle powered by compressed air to the top of the half moon and weight, gravity, and tension form a tension bar to force the pulley downward. It has an dc motor that powers the compressor. The compressor fills the tanks. The tanks give burst of compressed air to drive the pulley to the top of the half moon, and then gravity, weight and tension drive the pulley down. The pulley turns the belt the belt turns the alternators.
     
  19. recca02

    Senior Member

    Apr 2, 2007
    1,211
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    so why do you think this system will do work than the energy provided to it?

    like i said it is very much similar to the IC engine design where the power stroke is the only stroke where energy is released(very much similar in principle to compressor doing the work) rest of the time(three strokes) energy is consumed
    by the system.
    when your half moon shaped wheel (similar to flywheel even in shape) is pushed up it requires energy to do work against gravity and the said tension in the bar(i did not get the picture here is the bar placed but regardless if there is going to be a tension in it to do the work in other half cycle work will be stored in it in form of strain energy)

    so when the compressor drives the wheel up it must have enough energy to:

    supply rotational kinetic energy to the heavy fly wheel-or whatever is going to be rotated.

    supply energy to place the center of gravity of the system at a higher potential (in simple terms to raise the system(wheel) against gravity this work will be stored as system's potential energy which will take it downwards once it reaches the height.

    add stain energy to the bar while stressing it so that the tension will do the work later.

    whatever o/p you will now get will always be less than the sum of these(due to irreversiblities like friction,entropy increase etc) or at max equal to (this is possible only in theory these stored energies.

    so what energy increase are u expecting now?

    i'll tell u something from my exp the above system in reality will not even give you more than 30 % efficiency (actually i think even much less than that)
     
  20. Theoryofrelativity

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 28, 2007
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    I believe that it all comes down to how much air pressure and amt of air to raise the wheel or pulley. The spurt of compressed air will come from a tank and the amount of cycles or rotations the tank will produce before the electric motor has
    turn on and fill the tank back up with compressed air. The smaller the amount of compressed air to lift the pulley the better output achieved. What do you think?
     
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