Even so after watching lots of Meyers lecture videos, especially the Colorado Free Energy series (youtube) I don't see this guy as a fraud. He speaks frankly, and clearly spent years on patents, R&D, and construction of his equipment. Why would a phony divulge so much time and effort into something that was never supposed to work? Why would he receive so much attention? It seems like quite an elaborate scheme. And even though I'm not a physicist, why can't I see the flaw in his methodology?

Let's say hypothetically we have a water capacitor. Now imagine we have a way to prevent ANY current from flowing through the capacitor (i.e. tank circuit at resonance). As voltage potential increases, the water molecules begin to align, then elongate, until finally they split. Power is cut, gas bubbles float to the top, process repeats, with effectively no power loss. But then I'm not a water expert... why don't the gasses recombine immediately? Do they have to remain ionized to stay separated?

Now it has been argued that an EXTREMELY high voltage would be needed to pull an H2O molecule apart in this fashion. That's where I think the molecular resonance comes into play. If you can get those molecules flexing, then they will be easier to pull apart at the peak elongated state. There may have been a thread that answers the "how many volts?" question but I can't find it.

So, how many volts do we need to split an H2O molecule at 1 mm gap, assuming near infinite impedance?

 

You may find the article here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/6906290/on-the-dielectric-breakdown-of-water-an-electrochemical - of interest.

The first conclusion is that the current does it.

I had no luck getting the article to download in either test of PDF format.

 

Hmm, got that “never give up” attitude, eh?

Somewhat related…

I did and experiment as a 4th year undergrad that might say something about this. The intent of the experiment was to try to measure the force on a dielectric in a capacitor (there was more to it than this, but this was one phase of the experiment). The capacitor was built by depositing aluminium onto two 10cm x 10cm plates and holding them apart with 1mm Teflon blocks. I originally chose water as the dielectric because of its high dielectric constant. I used quadruple distilled water to ensure the impurity level was low. The capacitor was partly immersed into the water and a variable voltage source was attached.

The expectation was, as predicted by theory, that as the voltage across the plates was increased, the force on the water would increase and therefore draw the water into the capacitor. However, nothing happened. Scratching my head, I turned to a doped mineral oil which worked like a charm, although the effect was much less than I was hoping for with water.

Later that year my professor offered me extra credit if I could explain what happened with the water. I roped another student in and we set up the experiment again, this time with an altered capacitor and an x-ray machine to see if we could determine if something funky was going on. Sure enough, we discovered that in strong electric fields water straightens out (no longer looks like Mickey Mouse) and looses its dielectric properties. Now we get to the part that might be of interest here. I recall that we were at or near the KV range with nary a molecule of water dissociating. In fact, the force between the plates was enough to pull the aluminium off at times. If I get time, I’ll look up my notes on this.

I guess what I’m trying to get at there is that water is a very good insulator. Electrolysis of water requires some source of free ions to act as a vehicle to bring the electrical energy to the water molecule. So, putting NaCl in the water will allow this to happen. I’ve never measured it, but you can electrolyse salt water at a very low voltage, but then you're stuck with getting the chlorine out of the produt. However, I do not think NaCl or some other source of ions, or heating the water first, or beating it with microwaves or whatever, will reduce the dissociation energy.

The best bet would be to get the energy from somewhere else. Some cheap renewable source. Yeah, create a bacteria that dissociates water while it consumes sewage then let it loose on the planet.

 

Yeah, create a bacteria that dissociates water while it consumes sewage then let it loose on the planet.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Lots of bacteria produce hydrogen during fermentation.
Of perhaps more interest are the Archaea that produce methane.

John

 

Problem solved!

 

Wow I am completely amazed.. LMAO

This certainly has far exceeded any expectation that I had about the content of the thread.

Thanks all


BillO, your testing is extremely pertinent to this project, do you mind if I ask a few questions?
What was the min/max applied voltage?
What was the min/max frequency?
Was the water capacitor circuit isolated or shared ground with the power source?

I think that given your observation about the molecule elongating, it should be further proof that if you continued to increase the applied voltage field, eventually the molecule pulls apart, just like your aluminum tried to stick together. Imagine millions of tiny fingers grabbing onto each pair of hydrogens and giving them a yank with the same force that you saw make the aluminum move.

I'm quite convinced that any high current system that uses electrons to replace the hydrogen in an H20 molecule are never going to break Faraday. However, renewable power sources and recaptured waste electricity from an alternator are certainly viable power supplies.

 

Even so after watching lots of Meyers lecture videos, especially the Colorado Free Energy series (youtube) I don't see this guy as a fraud. He speaks frankly, and clearly spent years on patents, R&D, and construction of his equipment. Why would a phony divulge so much time and effort into something that was never supposed to work?

Yes Meyer was indeed smooth. A good con man has to be convincing. As for his patents, they are nothing more than electrolysis. As to his motive, how about all that money he got prior to the lawsuit? (Oh, yeah, the lawsuit - I guess he was not quite perfect at his con. He did indeed loose the lawsuit.)

Why would he receive so much attention?

Well meaning but misguided souls are easy prey for these scams. And there are a lot of well meaning but misguided souls.

It seems like quite an elaborate scheme.

Nah. Not really. Read up on some of the things con men do and have done historically.

And even though I'm not a physicist, why can't I see the flaw in his methodology?

Rose colored glasses? Eyes tightly shut? Too busy looking at the shiny thing while his other hand stuffs a rabbit in the hat?

You did read these, didn't you? http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396 and http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=18547

Here's another example of why you can't see the numerous flaws:

Now imagine we have a way to prevent ANY current from flowing through the capacitor (i.e. tank circuit at resonance).

You see? Despite having direct access to e-texts on howcapacitors work, you make this kind of statement. If you had actually read the text, you would see the glaring, obvious flaw. I could even post a link: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_13/index.html and you would probably not bother reading it. Pity. You would find your insanely easy way to minimise current flow through any capacitor.

So, how many volts do we need to split an H2O molecule at 1 mm gap, assuming near infinite impedance?

I'm sorry, Farlander. The universe just doesn't work that way. I know you want it to, but you and I don't get to decide how the universe works. We have to study it to learn how it really works. That means giving up our pre-concieved notions of what we want it to do.

If and when you are ready to take that step, we'll be here to help you with electronics. In the meantime...

...the dielectric strength of water is 80 times that of air, so you'll get an arc across your 1mm gap at about 240KV or above. That's conduction mind you, not water molecules coming apart. You'll never get that from voltage alone - it takes current for that.

 

Well fellas, you got me. If water fuel does exist, I'm not going to find it, at least not this month. I've packed up my test gear and will be waiting on an epiphany. Sad, because I was learning so much, and if there is a chance of using water as fuel, we're that much farther away from figuring it out. All the doubt and dissent has made me doubt myself, and until I can be confident there is a viable way to test this again, I'm through.

 

Well, here is another idea that you might want to work on. Iron is very abundant, cheap and environmentally safe. If you could come up with a way to extract nuclear energy from iron, that would be almost as good.

 

Water can be used as a fuel.. When application requires energy in the form of concentrated heat, HHO is an option..
There is a difference between fuel and energy in this context.. We process fuels, and the ones that yield more energy than we need to process them are large scale energy sources, the others are niche fuel/energy sources.. Since more energy is needed to separate water than is returned when its combusted, water fits into the niche category.. And given the plethora of cheaper (less costly to buy large scale, than the electricity to make that much energy in HHO) hydrocarbon options for combustion, its a small niche indeed..
Not much more convenient for potato cannons, and 2L bottle-rockets though..

Don't give up on electrolysis.. That can be great fun! Water is just the beginning.. You can use electrolysis to make a bunch of nifty/hazardous chemicals, electroplating/electrocleaning etc.. It can get complex when you add membranes.. Just don't start off with too much power, and work in an open window area incase you put something in that evolves Cl2 or some other toxic gas..
On the note of gases.. If you ever smell something, then it seems to have mysteriously drifted away, DO NOT assume you are safe! Many gases can only be smelled within a certain concentration 'range', and if the concentration gets too high, the odour may disappear, but the threat may not..

 

run a car on water? it defies the natural order my professors said... Mining the metal out of the earth and refining it to build your watch or cell phone car... or the mear existence of skyscrapers defied the natural order i said. then i left grad school.

anyway:
I built a black box HHO generator which i was able to splice into my fuel system and i have a print out from NJ state inspection facility proving 0.00% CO emissions so here's some new light from someone who's already done it... (i should disclose now that i do not have this anymore... i borrowed and subsequently had to return 3,000$ worth of platinum to do this)

absorption spectra: http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html
not applicable to this discussion

Microwaves utilize a frequency below waters resonance (about 1/7th )

there are several mistakes i don't have time to address; here's what you need to know

-water molecule is a 2 spring 3 mass system

-normal bonding energy: .52eV / molecule (convert use for spring constant

-simplify to a 2 mass (h2 + o) one spring system and solve for it's mechanical resonance or "natural frequency"

-note that this frequency is goverment use only: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...locations_Chart_2003_-_The_Radio_Spectrum.jpg and for military listening no less and be sure to shield your test array **** there is another reason you will need proper sheilding...

natural mechanical resonant dissociation is achieved by passing radio waves of the frequency of resonance for the simplified system through a water based dielectic capacitor. A 1mm gap is rather large actually ...

In order for this to work, you will need in addition:

PURE totally pure completely de-ionized water... hard to get but a deionizing column is easy to make and maintain. water so pure that drinking it would kill a person because it will leach the minerals out of your body.

Platinum... the plates must be platinum. coating isn't good enough. if you don't know why platinum is needed return to GO and do not collect 200$

greater efficency is achived by stepwise waveform amplitude increases in 3 times 3 fold such that while the frequency is held constant, the amplitude increases in a manner by example: 1,-3,9,-3,1,-3,9... etc
I will share my proof with anyone who wants to see it...

as a side note:

i don't feel right disclosing the frequency it's easy to calc and i have enough hints... THIS IS VERY illegal...
1. fueling a car with water is a tax crime unless you manage to pay your highway tax another way.
2. the radio frequency i have calculated is illegal for civilian use and not because of the water fuel thing... but because projecting that radio frequency into or onto or at a person would (could... i do not know enough about wave transmission beyond phase-aligned arrays for delivery but i digress) be fatal as they would suffer an anyurism from the gaseous 02 and h2 in their blood... this is or would be tesla's death ray. if he ever got past theory and was able to built a transmitter in the 20+ GHZ range.

i'll aslo add: i do not run this set up in my car every day. i did it to prove to some freinds that i could.

i was not able to obtain the help i needed to build an amplification circuit as i descibed previously for max efficiency so i just increased power till i got what i needed. this required a special alternator

car was a 94 VW passat GLX VR6... OBDI (they can't link to computer prior to obdII... if they link to you will fail for throwing a code or several)

also required: adjustable fuel pressure regulator: starting fluid: sea foam

-fuel pressure had to be adjusted to get it to run right
-engine had to be very clean internally (seafoam helped)
-hard to start when cold (engine flooding)
-water freezes and thus in very cold (winter) u may be stranded
-blow by on high mile engines puts water into oil which is not good for engine bearings
-upgraded alternator/charging system (add a second alternator or get a custom wound 200 amp unit)

the cars computer claimed it was getting 28.2 mpg from the water setup for the 3 days i ran it. i got stuck once. used starting fluid generously to get it going again.

sorry folks... it really isn't as simply as it sounds...

and... while, mathmatically, for the closed system, the HHO gen can beach over 218% eff... if you include the effort to mine the metals and make the semiconductors it's a loss which might wash with a lifetime of use...

but when you include all the energy our race has spent advancing the sciences we needed to do this... we're still in the negative

 

Yeah, right. And now you're going to get rich.

No more overunity on this site, read the stickies. This thread is almost a year old.

 

The claims are nonsense.

You might learn something from the linked threads in the sticky - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=28067

Pay attention to the extraordinary claims part.