MOLECULAR RESONANCE OF LIQUID H20

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Farlander, Feb 2, 2009.

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  1. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    Hi People,
    Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.

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    You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
  2. KL7AJ

    KL7AJ E-book Developer

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    I'm pretty sure the molecular resonance has little to do with how easy it is to dissociate water. If such were the case, microwave ovens would dissociate water all the time, which we know doesn't happen.

    D.C. voltage is as effective as anything for dissociating water.

    eric
  3. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    KL7AJ-
    I respectfully disagree. True, microwaves agitate the water molecules, causing increasing temperature
    Voltage fields around water align the dipolar molecule.
    So, when the molecule is at it's greatest "flexed" position, or "bent" or "squished" whatever, it is elongated, and the electron bonds are weaker. At this instant it should be A LOT easier to separate the water with voltage.
  4. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt E-book Developer

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    Do you have any idea to what frequencies those wavenumbers correspond? You will need something better than a CMOS 555 for your oscillator.

    Metaphysics might be a better forum on which to post this project.

    John
  5. thingmaker3

    thingmaker3 Moderator Staff Member

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    The molecular ressonant frequency of water is in the near-infrared. The absorption spectrum has nothing to do with "bending" the molecules.
  6. triggernum5

    triggernum5 Active Member

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    Its a common talking point with the whole HHO generator crowd.. Some ppl have claimed that microwave/IR excitation makes electrolysis energy feasible for HHO production.. (Obviously I've never seen this successfully demonstrated..
    Anyways, the wavenumber, or cm^-1 means wavelengths per cm..
    the wavength would be (1/wavenumber)cm.. So your graph is ranged from 2.5-3.0microns, or 5-6x the size of visible light waves..
  7. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    COOL
    I learn so much awesome stuff here...
    Thanks

    My point about absorption is that maximum absorption occurs at resonance. Absorption is literally transferring energy into physical motion of the molecules. In the case of water, being it's a triangular bond, the molecule is actually getting squeezed like a thigh master. When it's squeezed all the way, its elongated, and the bond is weakened. I recently read about someone using a quartz transducer as the cell container to facilitate this kind of resonance, and then using HV electrodes housed in the container to break the bonds.
  8. AliceT

    AliceT Guest

    Why doesn't someone just come out and answer the question? The frequency is of the order of 100 TeraHz, or 100,000 GigaHz, or 100,000,000 MegaHz, or 100,000,000,000 kiloHz or 100,000,000,000,000 Hz.

    In other words, an infrared laser is what you need. Of course, it's not going to work, but try if you want. But be careful because 3 microns is safe for the retina of the eye, but can damage the cornea since the radiation is absorbed so well that the thin layer of water takes all the energy. - OUCH! :eek: Buy the proper laser safety glasses, ... and some tissues so you can cry when you realize you wasted your time and money.
  9. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    Ouch so harsh, but thank you for the answer.

    Interesting that you should metion lasers because that's exactly what Meyers incorporated into his last system. The cell electrodes had slots cut in them for laser light to "prime" the water.
  10. triggernum5

    triggernum5 Active Member

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    Theres still those dang laws of thermodynamics to overcome.. Electrolysis of water for HHO just isn't a feasible energy source.. Its like buying new cars and hoping to make money reselling them..
  11. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    A valid point, which I will concede, but is it not it the case that we consume water in the process? Water is split, burned in the engine, and not all the water is recovered again. Some is turned into NO2.
  12. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt E-book Developer

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    Maybe this will give you some insight into that rhetorical question:

    Please excuse us for having a little fun. BTW, Farlander never asked that question, so it was fair to assume he knew the answer based on his extensive research into the topic.

    John
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  13. beenthere

    beenthere AAC Fanatic!

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    What is your point? Some of the oxygen is lost because it is trapped by parts of the exhaust system that are rusting.

    Assume a closed system, in which nothing but water, hydrogen, or oxygen is present. After careful measurement, it will always be true that more energy had to be used to electrolyze a quantity of water into component gasses than can be obtained by burning them back into water.
  14. beenthere

    beenthere AAC Fanatic!

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  15. thingmaker3

    thingmaker3 Moderator Staff Member

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    Now wait just a darn tootin' minute... since when does hydrogen miraculously transform into nitrogen?

    You're burning gasoline AND hydrogen to get your water and nitrous oxide and other products of combustion. Trust me, the equations DO balance! The universe is not a sloppy bookkeeper.
  16. Farlander

    Farlander Thread Starter Active Member

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    NO2 forms because of nitrogen in the ambient atmosphere mixing with the fuel in the cylinder.

    I saw a graph of the dissociation rate of water into HHO with amps on the x axis and voltage on the y axis. The curve increased exponentially with increasing voltage. How could this be possible if we assume equal power input = equal gas output? Can anyone verify the dissociation curve of water?

    Well people I don't have all the answers. My only good advice is don't let the government take your guns. I'm trying to solve a panacea that has never seen market despite thousands of people working on and some even claiming success. Still that goddam dune buggy video haunts me... how could he have a car that ran on water and nobody calls him on the lie? Don't you think news reporters would have noticed the smell of gas? WTH?
  17. thingmaker3

    thingmaker3 Moderator Staff Member

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    Because power = square of the voltage divided by impedance. Pleas please please please please read the material in the e-book.

    Interesting consistency there, huh? Lots and lots of effort, but zero hard evidence of success. If this were one of your patients instead of a social phenomenon, what would you conclude?

    Lots of people have called him on the lie. Some of them right here in our forum.
  18. beenthere

    beenthere AAC Fanatic!

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    To your credit - and their discredit - at least you're being honest about the results.
  19. triggernum5

    triggernum5 Active Member

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    That is true about the honesty.. Hiding giant batteries in their HHO vehicles seems to be a secondary hobby for alot of those revolutionary guys on YouTube..:)
  20. Bill_Marsden

    Bill_Marsden Moderator Staff Member

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    Or maybe a small cylinder of hydrogen? Not like their doing cross country drives or anything. A really small cylinder could be very stealthy indeed, maybe even in the electrolyzer (just one cylinder amoung many).
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