Mobillity Scooter Again

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by oshb5ems, May 15, 2014.

  1. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Hi All
    My first time on this board and found you due to my search regarding Mobility scooters. And like has been said before There is no love between the scooter company's and the man in the street no matter what his skill level. I worked for CAT in the lift truck division as a sparky finally ended in the motive power doing work on all the electric trucks right down to the hand type electric pallet trucks But had heart problems and after a bypass that did not go as planned its sort of messed my life up due now having a couple of vertebrae and both knees in the need of work but they will not touch me because I am unsuitable so they say and could only have life saving surgery..

    Anyway that aside as there is nothing I can do about that I hopefully can still remember what I need to be able to do what is needed on this scooter I have just fetched. Well hope I can as It will be better than my manual wheelchair. I canwalk about 10m but even then cannot stand for long so most of my work is done from a sitting position.

    Right the scooter is a Pride Colt XL8 a very nice scooter and one which I did not pay a lot for as It was bought as is and not working.. Its problem being it will not switch on. That is you turn the key and nothing happens the power gauge does not light up and nothing works at all. My initial thinking was batteries as it has been stood for about a year and after a few months the owners started to not charge it periodically. But I did not take my meter with me when we went to pick it up..

    Anyway It came with two chargers one needed the charging wire replacing but that took all of 10 mins . Plus Iv tested the batteries which are both showing around the 12.30v =/-2v. Iv checked the fuses which are all fine, Thats as far as I have gone as I need to get a shed/garage to get it covered first which will be better than this blue tarpaulin lol.
    Also I did not want to start and pull stuff off to check this and that as I was taught to test methodically but thats where I came up against a brick wall when I tried to get a manual or even schematics I cannot find anything on the net which is very strange as usually you can find anything.

    So I was going to ask if anyone has any idea as to what to check before I start to rip into it or can suggest a plan of attack?

    and finally can I ask are these scooters 12v or 24v?

    Many Thanks Regards Osh
     
  2. inwo

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2013
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    It will say on the charger. 12-24 Most are 24v. Also a jumper from pos to neg will mean 24v.

    It may have a resettable circuit breaker.
    Some have fuse or breaker between batteries.

    Controller would not fail to the point of not lighting up and blinking codes. IMO

    Look for a problem between batteries and controller.
     
  3. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Yes I thought that it sort of does not get to the controller as if like normal the key switch should be first in line after the batteries? I was also wondering if there was any type of cut out for such as not being able to turn on unless you was sat in the seat such as a dead-mans switch. But its hard without the schematics or a manual. But its getting close to me starting to pull some covers and bits off to start to do a power trace..

    regs Os
     
  4. bwilliams60

    Active Member

    Nov 18, 2012
    722
    88
    Before you get ripping things apart, lets step back and start fresh. You checked your batteries and they measured 12.3V. I am fellow tech so first thing I would do is get these batteries up to 12.6V (full battery voltage) and test them with a carbon pile load tester at 1/2CCA for 15 seconds. Minimum voltage should be 9.6V. Anything less and you are looking at batteries. Let me know what you have and then we can go from there. Don't use the capacitance tester as they are not an accurate measure of the ability of your batteries to carry a load. I would think even if they fail a load test, which I suspect they will, they should light up the dash. Does this unit have a master on/off switch or just an ignition switch. I would follow the wiring from the battery and see where the circuit protection and control devices are. Do you have a PowerProbe by any chance? This unit also has a 50 amp fuse and a 60 Amp circuit breaker (located under the seat I believe) protecting everything and then a main fuse block on the tiller (column). If the batteries need to be replaced, use deep cycle batteries from a reputable company. They are more than likely hooked in parallel for 12 VDC and more capacity. 24 Volts would make the ride more interesting I'm sure. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  5. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Hi

    Other than my normal AVO testers the only battery tester I have left is a old drop tester (You know the one with copper coil and two sides of fire proof material, Looks like asbestos lol) But am unsure if it can be used on the Gel type batteries that is?

    I think I have to find a point to test the voltage just before the key switch. That way will give me more Idea as to where It stands?.

    regs Os
     
  6. bwilliams60

    Active Member

    Nov 18, 2012
    722
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    Do you have a way of removing the batteries and load testing them with say a small starter motor or something that will draw considerable amperage. Unless you have a break in the wiring between the batteries and the ignition switch, the dash panel should light up when the key is turned on. If not, you have dead batteries. Check the main fuse(60Amp) for 12.6V referenced to battery negative post and check the fuse box for 12.6V. If you have 0.00V, you have an open between batteries and fuse or fuse panel. Let me know what you find
     
  7. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
    13
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    Hi The Drop tester I have will load the batteries I was unsure if it could be used on a Gel battery thats all.

    Right now to today's little tat tah lol First of all I plugged in the charger and got nothing it did not start to charge. So I started to trace the wires back to the main connector to the back sub frame (Rear wheels, motor, transaxale, and what looks like Ali box for main connectors for Battery heavy duty, Motor heavy duty and some axillary,) Something I did not know till today is that the scooter splits in half.)
    Anyway I get the 24v to the main connector coming from the back end. This then plugs into a connector that goes all the way under the floor of the scooter and up the steering column to the fuse box and charging port. now at this point I was not getting 24v to the front half. so I dismantled the steering column covers and started to check the connections and the various plugs and sockets. I noticed that there was the odd pin and socket corroded so gave then a good clean and sprayed them with Solvo autosol the electrical contact cleaner. and plugged everything back together . Tried the AVO and got same supply as at the back end. . So th
    ought great. Plugged in the charger and it started to charge?.

    At this point im feeling quite tired out so started to turn the steering coloum and the charger stopped working. Dam it I started to move the sockets and plugs I had just resealed and put back together and came on again. This happened a few times till it stopped and would not come on.
    It was obviously something more than the plugs I had just done. so I started to remove more of the front end covers and at the point where the column actually turns left and right and the harness is anchored right at the bottom with a bolt and metal cable clip. and as the column turned you could see it actually pulling the wires and what a stupid idea another 20way plug and socket just below the metal clip. and they are covered with two boots which look like they should go inside the other to keep out the water now that did not look great at all. plus the cable was cable tied twice just after the 20way socket so every time i was turning the column it pulled on the wires and caused the charger to shut off. So I had to unplug the rear end again so I could pull some slack so I could seal the 20way plug. I used two tie wraps to keep them together and then used amalgamation tape to seal it then reused the rubber boots as a belt and braces job. I then put the metal clip back in place and tried it again and now the charger works fully no matter which way you turn the steering column. :)

    Anyway its now on charge and I will see what happens when and if the batteries charge up.

    The testing did bring up a couple of other questions though. The first being even though the drive is 24v will the lights and everything else be 12v?
    And the other is that I also did some wire tracing on the ignition circuit and it looks like it is negative to the switch . Will that be right?

    regards Os
     
  8. MrChips

    Moderator

    Oct 2, 2009
    12,425
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    Glad you are making headway.

    Are the lights 12V or 24V? When you get the battery charged, use the voltmeter to check the voltage at the lights, etc.

    Switch on negative side? Anything can be expected.

    Anything can be expected with inferior design. I have an ebike and every time I ride in the rain it quits. I had to rewire most of it and move the controller to a location where it doesn't get wet in the rain.
     
  9. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Hi Chips.

    That was my first go yesterday at trying to find out what is wrong with the scooter. But when it came it was dead that is to say you turn the key and you get nothing. For instance there is a meter on the dash that has a ring of LEDs that go round the meter which is I assume to show batter charge or condition That does not come on neither will any of the lights, horn or ancillary's work. But now its fully charged Green light illuminated on the charger and the fan had stopped so I assume that means its at full charge? (there was a nominal charge already in the batteries when I got the scooter but like I said nothing would work.) Anyway I can start and have a look at the ignition circuit now because I tried it this morning when fully charged and its still the same "NOTHING DuH" So jf its not letting any power through be it either +/- then nothing will work correct that is to say lights or horn or anything as they will all be tied into and via the ignition switch wont they?.

    Also I would have thought that there wouldn't be anything between the ignition and the battery other than the ignition fuse and master circuit breaker would you?.

    Which then brings the problem into the realms of a broken wire. (which seeing how the steering column was pulling at the harness could well be possible.
    things would go a hell of a lot easier if I could get a manual with set points of test with the expected voltage like our CAT manual used to have..
    But manuals or Help from the scooter manufactures is as rare as Rocking Horse Poo LOL:D

    Thanks Os.

    P.S. I have noticed one thing The lack of earth connections?? But this being a USA produced Scooter anything may well be possible?
     
  10. MrChips

    Moderator

    Oct 2, 2009
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    I would imagine that an earth connection (i.e. connection to chassis) is not a necessity.

    I think what you are doing is the right approach, i.e. trace for 24VDC voltage continuity with a voltmeter.

    You should at least see some lights and the horn working.
     
  11. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Hi Again.

    Iv got the dash off now And think it might help if I put a photo up.

    What I have is -12v from the back end (Will -12v injunction with the battery charge +voltage? As so far I cannot find any +voltage to the dash. Which I find strange. ???

    Right a few things The horn lights and extra ancillary are 12v because that is what the bulbs say on them? As for the battery meter Im not sure as to weather that is 24v or not.
    As I was about to say the feed wire that goes into the ignition switch which I have said I think is negative feed is "Red" the wires out of the ignition two of them are brown. one goes to the battery meter and the other goes and it split into 3 to the horn and the indicators. The switches and buttons that control these have a feed ire that fans out between then and connects to them all and is Black. The other side of the switch then goes into horn indicators and lamps.. Now if I was thinking normaly then to me red should be Posative and black negative. Which then throws out what I am getting from the back end and batteries. Like I said I think it is prudent to get a few photos and see what you think. Also I would think there should be a positive and negative feed to the dash even before it goes through the ignition switch wouldn't you?

    Also with it being stood a couple of the push switches and rocker switches was not working right but a little time spent on each managed to sort them out.

    Its getting done little by little But till i get anything at the dash that says
    POWER is ON then I wont feel its progress. I had thought about running a 12v lead to the dash as a temp but would not now where to start with it till I actually work out which is - or + lol.
    Anyway till then any suggestions muchly appreciated :)

    Os

    P.S. Just a thought there must be some kind of step down electronics to get from 24v down to 12v? Right?, Well somewhere along the line?
    I wonder if it might be that which malfunctioning? Thinking about it there is a strange 2"x2"x 1/4" sealed block of electronics behind the dash? I wonder if thats it or that could be possibly be the electronic speed controller? But that would still need a feed? (But after the ignition is on so all back to the ignition?
    My Head hurts LOL
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  12. Alec_t

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 17, 2013
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  13. inwo

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2013
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  14. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Hi Thanks for the upload I managed to download the correct one from Pride But it covers more or less the same info as yours. And to think some are trying to sell them for £10 on Ebay LOL.

    Right Iv done a lot of wire tracing and recording wires and colours today with quite a few photos which I will try and upload in the morning.
    This + and - is a strange thing I will try and explain why..
    There is a thin red wire that goes to the ignition ( All day long I would normally say it would be positive But) On the other side it come out as two brown wires which then branches out to various other points like the horn, indicator, lights, and so on.
    Then on the other hand we have a black wire that goes from front to back or the other way round? I have not found its origin at the back as yet. But it connects to every switch for horn, indicator, light, hazards and the 4 to 8mph switch Then from the other side of these switches is a different colored wire so is easy to trace.

    Would you think that these are then negative switched???

    The other thing for my reasoning is there is a brown wire that runs between the front and the back but is the earth wire for both light clusters..

    LOL the wiring feels a right cluster **** as it is LOL

    iv found red wires turning into brown at plugs and sockets Iv seen sockets mating to plugs with different colour wires coming out of them. there seams no continuity of the wiring system

    Anyway photos to follow shortly.. as think I need help LOL

    But if I was to use the setup of the + and - charge they are red and black So do I take this as normal..

    Regs Os
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  15. Alec_t

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 17, 2013
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    Vehicle manufacturers seem to use various wire colours in non-standard ways. Unless you have a wiring diagram for your model which shows the colours I wouldn't risk guessing what any particular colour signifies.
    Example: where your two batteries are connected in series the pos of one connects to the neg of the other, so should the manufacturer use black/red striped coding for wires terminating there?
     
  16. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    Yes I know what you mean its a strange thing but I look at that as just a link not a wire.. The thing I need most is the test points on the rear harness on the plug with voltages. that way I could rule out the back end? anyway here is some photos I took yesterday. see if it can jog anyone's memory?
    Mainly the small 2"x2"x1/4" box of electronics behind the dash which I am unsure of. What do you think it is.

    I have included a photo of all the back section of the scooter with the layout of all the main parts
    The Main controller shown from the larger photo The top plug is the 24v from the battery the grey plug is main motor power. The smaller black plug is from the freewheel/powered lever at the back
    The box under the dash which is electronics encased. there looks like there is at .east 3 chips for either power reduction or?
    The underside of the dash in two halves the top including the ignition switch battery meter and speed pot.
    The bottom half with all the push button and rocker switches
    The Forward and reverse switch and leaver

    See what you make of those?:confused:
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  17. Gdrumm

    Distinguished Member

    Aug 29, 2008
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    Is there a dead man switch in the seat?
     
  18. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    That was my first thought but cannot find any wires or connections to anything which would look like one. Which surprises me does it not you? Seeing as what if you are not on it never mind sat on it can you turn on the key and press the forward or reverse and it start to move????? never..

    Oh I did test the Freewheel/Brake and its either open circuit or 50Ohms Does that sound right? Im only guessing but the 50ohms is the windings for the electro magnet stop?
    Also I powerd the motor up and runs just fine.

    Iv also made a drawing of the plug from the rear and have added what pin does what with either + or - and voltage. But so far only one + pin and that is the charging plug pin... But I would think there should be at least one more + to the front as the charge lead is just that and goes no where else?
     
  19. inwo

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2013
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    I'm not seeing wires large enough to feed the main controller.
    At least in my opinion. Being fused at 60 and 125 amps.

    Start checking from the battery. Until you get power to the main controller, which will have at least #10 cable, the other circuits may not be powered.

    The main controller will have large gauge wire from the battery ant out to the motor.

    Non of the safety circuits come into play until there is main power.
     
  20. oshb5ems

    Thread Starter New Member

    May 15, 2014
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    The power to the main controller is via the plug at the top on the photo of the main controller The black one And there is 24v at that point so power is getting to the controller so would say the main circuit breaker is working? The grey one below that is the main motor power out.
    I have added a close up of the main controller connections.

    Also I think I may have a idea for the 2"x2"x1/4" block of encased electronics behind the dash. Which is. A relay flasher unit simply because both the indicator and the horn wires go into it before going out to the lamps and horn? what do you think?

    I will have to take the cover of the bottom of the main controller as I dont know what wires come out of that yet and would think that as the main voltage is going in via the large plug then there should be a smaller wire coming from the controller giving + voltage to the front and dash?

    Os
     
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