Mind puzzle, can anyone build this?

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Farlander, Oct 14, 2008.

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  1. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Hi everyone,

    I'm very glad to be here, you all have a great forum. Thanks in advance for any help!

    I've been working on a water fuel device for the last 6 months, and one of the main components needed is a pulse generator. It should have variable frequency and variable pulse width. The idea is to charge the LC circuit at resonance frequency, and (possibly) match frequency with the acoustic resonance of the submerged electrodes. Several people have been building these out of 555 timers. I'm attempting to build one using something OTHER than the 555 chip... here is the waveform I'm attempting to emulate.
    http://www.hydrogencollective.com/packetpulser1.mpg

    If anybody thinks they know how to replicate this wave with a cheap board, I would be ecstatic to know how! It might even save the planet.

    For more info on the water splitter, check out my page here
    http://students.umw.edu/~jsera9mu/wfc site/


    Thanks!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2008
  2. mik3

    Senior Member

    Feb 4, 2008
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    The best way to do it is with a microcontroller or a PLC with a PWM output. You can do it with discrete components but with a microcontroller or a PLC you can change the frequency and the pulse width by just using two potentiometers.
     
  3. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    It's a piece of cake, but it won't do you any good and you are wasting your time.
    BTW your link is busted.
     
  4. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    MIK3:

    What would a good option be for a microcontroller or PLC? What is a PLC? How much do they cost? And what would be the range of frequency I could expect to get from the system? Eventually, this should be compatible with an automobile, and hopefully a PLL resonant scanning circuit to be able to find and maintain resonant frequency.

    Papabravo:
    Try the cut and paste technique. Why is it a waste of time? If it's a piece of cake, then what are your instructions?
     
  5. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    Farlander,

    Papabravo is saying that because it has been proved that "More energy is therefore required to drive the electrolysis cell than can be extracted from burning the resulting hydrogen-oxygen mixture."

    See details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fueled_car

    Steve
     
  6. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Scuba:
    You refer to the conventional method of electrolysis, using high amperage to inject electrons into water, which liberate the hydrogen atoms from the HH0 molecule. This alternative system uses pulsed step up transformers to generate high voltage (~20KV) to pull the molecule apart with an electrical field. High resistance is the goal -- choke coils, distilled water, and oxide layers on the electrodes are all beneficial. No electrolyte, no current, no waste heat. If you believe wikipedia, fine...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2009
  7. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    Oh, and to talk about the pulser..

    If I were to build this, I would use a PSoC microcontroller. You can accomplish this easily with two PWM blocks. One for the low-frequency and one for the high frequency. You would configure both blocks and run the output of the low-frequency PWM into the enable of the high-frequency PWM block. You can get about 96KHz PWM with 8-bit resolution. Or, on the low-scale, about 5mHz at 16-bit resolution. Or even lower if you wanted...

    Download the PSoC designer software (free) and check out the example code on how to use the PWM, then use what I said to make it work. You can buy a programmer board for ~50$ from digikey.

    Steve
     
  8. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Ok, I've been hearing a lot of people say that the microcontroller is the way to go... these cards need to interface with a computer right, via usb I'm guessing??

    I'm not very familiar with them...

    Could I get the precision frequency adjust and range shown in the video?

    Also, later, a PLL or some sort of feedback circuit needs to be incorporated to automatically adjust the duty cycle to the resonant frequency of the LC circuit (step up coils being the inductors, and water tank being the capacitor)

    Thanks!
     
  9. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    You're ignorant because you didn't read the page on something you're dedicating your free time and money into. In other words, Wikipedia merely states that you may generate hydrogen from water and then get as much energy back, assuming there is a 100% efficient process for electrolysis and combustion. If you're claiming over an over 100% efficient process, you're totally hopeless..

    When are these 'free energy' fanatics going to go to school and learn the science?
     
  10. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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  11. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Beside the above link, you need to closely read through this link - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14695 - where we attempt to get another water power believer to build some equipment that actually works.

    Works in the sense of electrolyzing water as efficiently as possible, that is.

    I will repeat myself: Someone really needs to try this stuff out in a setting that can be reproduced. Sticking a gadget under your hood and claiming mileage increases and/or huge volumes of water electrolyzed due to some not-quite-secret effect does not impress anyone but the credulous.

    All that is needed is one cell, two plates, and whatever circuitry is going to produce Brown's gas at over-unity volumes. Just record the operating parameters, publish on the web, and the survivors of the planet-wide assassinations ordered by the oil cartels will be able to see that the device/methodology works.

    Hint: It should work anywhere, at any time, and with any reasonably close approximation of the cell and driving device. That is called the scientific method, and is universally recognized as the sole means of validating claims.

    You still want to pulse current through the cell? No problem. A FET and two 555's (maybe an LM311) and you're there.
     
  12. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Am I supposed to accept the fact that our children along with our planet are doomed to be slaves and die a horrible death under the tyranny of fossil fuel industry? Burning dinosaur bones is not the answer.

    If you read my site, you would see Einstein's relativity, stating that mass and energy are equal, and since water is denser than gas, it contains more energy per gallon, capiche?

    I'm not interested in scam artists OR agents of misinformation. The sources I use are free and not trying to make a profit. There's no consortium of researchers in cahoots to make a buck off stainless steel or anything like that. There is however a conspiracy of trying to put down this technology, motivated by profit.

    And lastly, I should point out that all of you who quote laws of physics, etc. should be informed that modern scientists ARE ALWAYS THE LAST ONES TO ADMIT NEW TECHNOLOGY has been discovered, maybe because of their sorry pride that they didn't think of it it first.

    It's not free energy, DUH, it's BURNING WATER AS FUEL, the same way we burn gasoline, and that's certainly not free is it? It's just water is clean. Now if you don't believe me go research it for yourself before you try contradicting me. BACK TO THE POINT AT HAND, how to build a DISCRETE, PWM with variable pulse width, variable frequency, and variable pulse PACKET width., shown HERE
    http://www.hydrogencollective.com/packetpulser1.mpg

    Yes there are a lot of scammers out there selling booster kits and instructions for their devices yadda yadda. The real deal is Stanley Meiyers, you tube his ** profanity deleted **, he got his device patented under U.S. section 101 which means WORKING DEMONSTRATION MODEL PROVIDED. When somebody figures it out they're going to know who helped and who opposed, I suggest you choose your side carefully or you'll have no choice but to pay so you can breath poison. Good luck
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2009
  13. Farlander

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Oct 14, 2008
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    Thank you beenthere, the Lm311 is new to me, WHALA! You see, progress ain't so bad is it?

    As for publishing the info, anyone brave enough to put it out there goes to jail or worse, and then is labeled a lunatic by people like some of you, so it goes nowhere. Thousands of water cars exist today, by people smart enough not to tell anyone they did it. They probably assumed (as I'm starting too) that people are too **profanity deleted** stupid and self destructive and don't deserve to know there's something better out there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2008
  14. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    Right, conspiracies. But look at the number of web sites touting free energy and water power. Some claim conspiracy prevents them from actually producing some device, but the sites are always there with plans (and very contradictory methodologies). Not to mention a number of claims of 48% (love the precision) gas mileage increases.

    There is a $1,000,000 prize waiting for anybody who can show a working device off.

    All scientists are sceptical. They insist on being able to reproduce the effect right there in their own labs, with results comparable to the claim.

    Don't forget that the over-unity devices purport to violate a fundamental law of nature. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary proof. That's proof, not verbal/video claims.

    I don't think you can do two things:

    1. Make a case for a conspiracy of silencing alternative energy experimenters.

    2. Actually make and demonstrate under any conditions a device that actually does work.

    Be assured that we will be among the first to evaluate and get the word out about any such device. Go beyond the IC engine, though. H2 is perfect for steam or gas turbines. If you can make a lot of it, I'm gonna buy a lathe and make my own steamer.
     
  15. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    As I have expressed very recently in the forums, I want our society to be free of fossil fuels! I have worked my entire life to be a better engineer so that I can help people.

    It's the arrogance of some people thinking that they can solve huge problems, such as the energy crisis, without any high-level education. No proof, no results, just ramblings of conspiracy theories and empty promises. This is what really irritates me...

    You have a few choices,

    1) Actually learn what you need to know from the ground up and actually post your theory / numbers to support your claims. Experiment, etc.
    2) Encourage people to get involved and to make a difference. Understand your boundaries as a scientist.
    3) Go on thinking everyone are hiding the truth and blind.

    Steve

    P.S.- Your claim of 1000s of water powered vehicles traveling around in secret is absolutely ridiculous. If you seriously think this, consider getting professional help.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
  16. scubasteve_911

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    Dec 27, 2007
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  17. blocco a spirale

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  18. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    So is Mother Nature. People really need to look up the Laws of Thermodynamics. It's not rocket science, though rockets use it too.

    The waveform is showed is pretty compex, which makes it natural pick for a microcontroller. Two 555's could create any one waveform, but added together it becomes a lot harder.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
  19. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    In the industrial control business we have a saying about the PLC(Programmable Logic Controller). You can find a better PLC than an Allen Bradley PLC-5, but you won't pay more for it. Trust me on this, you probably can't afford one.



    Get a microprocessor with a timer and a digital output pin, and program it with the following simple algorithm.
    1. Turn the output on, and start the ON timer
    2. When the ON Timer expires, turn the output OFF, and start the OFF timer.
    3. When the OFF timer expires, return to step 1
    You may find it useful to have a method for changing the values of the ON timer and the OFF timer. The relevant parameters of the device will be
    Code ( (Unknown Language)):
    1.  
    2. frequency = 1 / (ON time + OFF time)
    3.  
    4. duty cycle = ON time / (ON time + OFF time)
    5.  
    Like I said it's a piece of cake. I regard your chances of producing useful results as being of a very low order of probability. Yet hope springs eternal, so prove me wrong and have the last laugh -- if you can. So here is your chance to stand and deliver.
     
  20. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    Well, a uC would definitely be an easy way to go.

    However, that may just preclude finding that elusive "sweet spot" he's looking for; a uC may not have a fast enough clock to get the resolution necessary; it might skip right over where he wants to be.

    One thing for certain; the resonant frequency of the cell will change over temperature due to expansion/contraction. It'll also change from when no gas is being produced to when gas is being produced, as the dielectric constant of water is different from the dielectric constant of air. I haven't been able to find out what the dielectric constant of "HH0" is, though. Anybody?

    After a quick search, found this:
    http://asiinstr.com/technical/Dielectric%20Constants.htm
    Relevent extracts:
    AIR 1
    AIR (DRY) (68° F ) 1.000536
    HYDROGEN (440° F ) 1.23
    HYDROGEN (212° F ) 1.000284
    OXYGEN (-315° F ) 1.51
    OXYGEN (68° F ) 1.000494
    WATER (32° F ) 88.0
    WATER (68° F ) 80.4
    WATER (212° F ) 55.3

    So, just a SWAG here - "HHO" would likely have a dielectric constant right around 1, the water being used would have a dielectric constant anywhere from 88 down to 55. The more gas being produced, the greater the decrease in the capacitance value of the cell. That could wreak havoc with attempting to maintain a resonant tank circuit, unless you had a way to externally increase capacitance (perhaps a gang capacitor; risky with 50kV across it) or vary the inductor; perhaps a variometer or an inductor with multiple taps.

    If you don't know what I mean by "variometer", here's a homebuilt one:
    http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/variometer.htm
    Basically, one inductor inside another, connected in series.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2009
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