Maybe Programming is not for the masses

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
I took a course in Basic which taught me how to organize an idea in preparation for programming a computer to solve a problem for me. Then I took a course in Fortran which told me all programming has a certain logical structure, and everything after that is syntax. (That might not be true now.)
That's still a big part of it - building a structure around some logical ideas.

I've been playing around lately with making an app, and programming is orders of magnitude more complicated than it used to be. And yet simpler. It's more complicated because of the sheer range of things you can now do, but simpler than ever to accomplish the individual tasks. I remember writing a change-making program in FORTRAN back in the day. It took so long to troubleshoot and complete, and then all you had were punch cards with code on them. It would be just minutes on a laptop now, limited mostly by your thinking speed, once you're set up.

An enormous amount of stuff is available to help you actually produce a useful app and make it available to the world. That used to be essentially impossible. Now it's a "software developer's kit" or SDK with powerful tools and gobs of pre-built functionality. Want to make a monkey wave on screen while the bluetooth connects? It'd take just a few minutes if you know what to go read.
 

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Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
I thrived and survived on low level, bare metal programming for decades. I bailed on high level applications when MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes) made their appearance. No desire to dive back in since I'm now happily retired.
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
MFC facilitates making nice user interfaces, but underlying functionality of a MFC program is still good 'ol C++. I've written two MFC programs, one for testing a hardware design I completed for industry, and the other just for fun. It's really nice if you're making a easy to use windows program, but I have no need to use it further now. I'm concentrating more on embedded programming, as this seems to be the way my career is headed now.
 

Thread Starter

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
MFC facilitates making nice user interfaces, but underlying functionality of a MFC program is still good 'ol C++. I've written two MFC programs, one for testing a hardware design I completed for industry, and the other just for fun. It's really nice if you're making a easy to use windows program, but I have no need to use it further now. I'm concentrating more on embedded programming, as this seems to be the way my career is headed now.
I only used MFC as a timeframe reference. The last PC application I wrote was using Borland 3.1 or maybe Visual Studio 2005 for console applications
 

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
Here's a little article from /. that questions the proposition that anybody can learn to program. I have often wondered about this since I was one of the self taught ones. I started at the age of 14 in 1962. First college class was 1967, by which time I was already working part time as a programmer for one of the early timesharing companies.

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/15/12/04/2153236/programming-education-selling-people-a-lie
The article seems to be more social engineering rhetoric rather than an objective analysis.

I've heard the social proposition that everyone is inherently equal and therefore the results must be equal. Under the U.S. Constitution, all people are created equal and are entitled to equal opportunity for achievement. However that does not mean all people will achieve to the highest standard.

Regarding programming, it is an art like music and playing the piano or a violin. I am versed in FORTRAN which follows my aptitude for logical reasoning and orderly problem solving. However, many do not have an aptitude for logical reasoning.

Most of my life, I have also worked in the trades (elevator business and mass transit) and I recognize there are other intervening factors affecting achievement that are beyond the control of the individual.
 

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
That is the prevailing notion among the politically correct, but it is absolutely wrong. The error is proven every day by the thousands who attend college and fail and, even worse, by those who get a degree, massive student loan debt, and no real job skills. They either can't find or hold a job, or manage to land a spot where, again for political correctness, they are allowed to get paid while producing nothing.
Just like the mass transit industry where there are 100s of administrators and much fewer mechanics and techs to actually keep trains and buses rolling.

Reminds me of the old joke "How many government employees does it take to screw in a light bulb"? Answer: Three, one to hold the bulb and two to turn the ladder. :p
 

Thread Starter

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
The article seems to be more social engineering rhetoric rather than an objective analysis.

I've heard the social proposition that everyone is inherently equal and therefore the results must be equal. Under the U.S. Constitution, all people are created equal and are entitled to equal opportunity for achievement. However that does not mean all people will achieve to the highest standard.

Regarding programming, it is an art like music and playing the piano or a violin. I am versed in FORTRAN which follows my aptitude for logical reasoning and orderly problem solving. However, many do not have an aptitude for logical reasoning.

Most of my life, I have also worked in the trades (elevator business and mass transit) and I recognize there are other intervening factors affecting achievement that are beyond the control of the individual.
I disagree. It attacks the proposition that everyone can learn to program. Implicit in that hypothesis is that it is foolish to try to teach everyone to program because that is just not possible. Where is the social engineering in that? Not everyone can learn to be a brain surgeon, an artist, or a CRNA either.
 

tindel

Joined Sep 16, 2012
936
It's just typing... I'll hire you another 'office administrator' to help you type faster.

<tongue planted firmly in cheek>
 

GetDeviceInfo

Joined Jun 7, 2009
2,192
I have always taken to dancing. An instructor was showing me a step one time that I just couldn't get. A month later, in a different style, l told her that I enjoyed that step she just showed us. It turned out to be the same step in a different context.
I had taken quite a few electronics course during my early years, and was drifting off in one class while the the instructor scribed a long formula on the board. It wasn't till he referenced the speed of light until I snapped back to why I was there in the first place.
And so goes programming for me. I searched and studied as to what was this object oriented thing was. Then one day, an article spoke my language, and the sun rose.

Education is a journey of discovery. Many embark on the journey not knowing where they are actually going. That can't be seen as a fault. Being one that has continually engaged in education, I have learnt that due to the competitive nature of delivery, one must choose carefully where they invest thier time and finances. Self taught, for me, has taught me to ask appropriate questions, severely limiting the choice of who has the appropriate answers.
 
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#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
I searched and studied as to what was this object oriented thing was. Then one day, an article spoke my language, and the sun rose.
That is the main strength of this website. Somebody here will eventually use the right words for the O.P. Often enough, it's not me, but that isn't a personal insult. I just can't communicate with a certain percentage of the population.
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
34,281
............
Seriously where did you lay your hands on a computer in 1962?
No personal computers of course.
But at that time (1960), for example, the U. of Wisconsin had a home-brew tube computer (about 15,000 tubes as I recall, which had a rotating magnetic drum for memory) that was programmed in machine language only.

They also had a small IBM computer (1620 I think) that you could program in GOTRAN (a subset of FORTRAN). I remember doing a few very simple programs on that.
You submitted your IBM cards with the program to the operator and then went back the next day for the results (never got near the actual computer, of course).
 

Thread Starter

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
Imagine trying to debug a program that would not even compile correctly, with a 24 hour turnaround. It taught me precision, patience, and attention to detail. There was plenty of opportunity to learn new things while we waited for our output.
 

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
8,218
Imagine trying to debug a program that would not even compile correctly, with a 24 hour turnaround. It taught me precision, patience, and attention to detail. There was plenty of opportunity to learn new things while we waited for our output.
I'm guessing in 25 years the difference in speed at which hardware will be developed and built by independent individuals might become comparable.
 
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