# Mass of a Photon

Discussion in 'Physics' started by SplitInfinity, Mar 26, 2013.

1. ### SplitInfinity Thread Starter Member

Mar 3, 2013
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The general eqasion to determine mass is E2 = m2c4 + p2c2 So in the case of a Photon, m=0 so E = pc or p = E/c. On the other hand, for a particle with mass m at rest...p=0...you get back the famous E = mc2.

A Photon is said to have no mass but yet it DOES obtain MOMENTUM.

In empty space, the photon moves at c...the speed of light and its energy and momentum are related by E = pc, where p is the magnitude of the momentum vector p. This derives from the following relativistic relation, with m = 0.

A Photon also has Spin Angular Momentum which has nothing to do with a Photons frequency. Now given the fact a Photon has Momentum given to it by several of a Photons state of existence...how can a Photon obtain Momentum and yet not have a Mass?

A Photon is a Quantum Particle/Wave Form which all Protons and Neutrons are comprised of in variety including the Higgs-Boson which is responsible for allowing them to abtain Mass.

Given this the question is...since a specific form of Quanta can have Momentum...is this possible and thus created by Universal or Multiversal Space/Time Dimensionality...or...is there a SUB PARTICLE that exists smaller that known Quanta that is responsible?

Split Infinity

2. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,766
2,536
I suspect the term momentum is totally off base in this application. A photon has a constant speed according to medium it is going through, that does not change. What does change is frequency, this is where the energy variance is to be found, no where else.

3. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Sub-light increases in speed also increase Relativistic mass as seen in a cyclotron particle accelerator. Even just heating a object causes a very small increase in Relativistic mass due to the atoms thermal motion increasing.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html

The rest mass of a photon is zero but a photon is like "Chuck Norris", it never rests. The trapped energy from the process that created the photon produces the properties of Relativistic mass and (real) momentum due to it's speed.

Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
4. ### SplitInfinity Thread Starter Member

Mar 3, 2013
369
9
A Photon is KNOWN to obtain momentum from both it's spin thus quoted from WIKI...The photon also carries spin angular momentum that does not depend on its frequency.[17] The magnitude of its spin is and the component measured along its direction of motion, its helicity, must be ±ħ. These two possible helicities, called right-handed and left-handed, correspond to the two possible circular polarization states of the photon.[

As well a Photon obtains momentum from it rate of travel at the speed of light.

Split Infinity

5. ### SplitInfinity Thread Starter Member

Mar 3, 2013
369
9
I am aware of what you post. The word...Revativistic Mass is a term used to explain something we are not really sure of what the reason for it is although we can say...when this does this and that is applied we get...this.

It is the same for the way we know that Higgs-Bosons are needed to give Protons and Neutrons Mass...but we don't know how they do it.

Split Infinity

6. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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We don't know why it's that way but the current theory matches the measurements when we do experiments (LHC) to validate the theory. You can get metaphysical with various reasons but my thought is the spin properties that are see in a photon are the encoding of space at the point of it's creation.

There is a bit of of argument about the extent that (orbital angular momentum) spin can be used to transmit information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_angular_momentum_multiplexing

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0056086

7. ### SplitInfinity Thread Starter Member

Mar 3, 2013
369
9

I have always believed that Matter or the Quanta that make it up...can store information as well as it can be accessed.

This concept is similar to those who work in the Paranormal fields as far as specific Matter such as rock with high Quartz content...being able to store information such as Violent Death Psionic Transmission.

Split Infinity

8. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
2,908
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You lost me there.

I have no idea about the true nature of the "fabric of space" ie what's behind the vacuum or nothingness but we do know that it (photons) can be bent by gravity as it warps that 'fabric' so there is some structure to vacuum.

http://www.tgdaily.com/sustainability-features/70452-speed-of-light-fluctuations-prompted-by-ephemeral-vacuum-particles#!/exjun_

Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
9. ### SplitInfinity Thread Starter Member

Mar 3, 2013
369
9
Spook....as far as what you posted.....

The fluctuations of the photon propagation time are estimated to be on the order of 50 attoseconds per square meter of crossed vacuum, which might be testable with the help of new ultra-fast lasers. Leuchs and Sanchez-Soto, on the other hand, modelled virtual charged particle pairs as electric dipoles responsible for the polarization of the vacuum.
They found that a specific property of vacuum called the impedance, which is crucial to determining the speed of light, depends only on the sum of the square of the electric charges of particles but not on their masses.
If their idea is correct, the value of the speed of light combined with the value of vacuum impedance gives an indication of the total number of charged elementary particles existing in nature. Interestingly, experimental results support this hypothesis.

In this quoted statement they are assigning the word..."Impedance" to describe Resistance in a Vacuum specific to Vacuum Polarization.

I don't buy this at all.

Photon rate of travel calculations as it applies to Space/Time distance is at the mercy of Gravitic Effect thus the Warping of that Space/Time Geometry. Although Photon velocity is relative as it applies to specific material that Photons can travel through...ie...Photons travel at less than 186,282 miles per second when traveling through a Diamond...Photon velocity is constant in a vacuum.

Since our Universe is filled with Celestial bodies as well as having Dark Matter spread through out it...the warping of Space/Time changes distance and thus would seem to change Photon Velocity...but it does not as it is the Distance that is changed.

Split Infinity