Makes a LED's moving effect wheel

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by j_thain, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
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    hi there I need some help with some electrical circuitry.

    I volunteer each year for a local pantomime and we have made a huge prop caridge for Cinderella.

    It is made out of MDF and we want the wheels to look like they are going round. I have a big bag of LED's (spec below) and have an idea in mind.

    Imaging a curricular piece of MDF (a wheel) with hole drilled out of them and 48 LED's in the holes. what I am wanting to do is have the LED's lit-up and every 3rd not lit and then all the LED's that are not lit to move up 1 giving the effect the the wheel is moving?

    i also want to run this on batteries. up to 12v i guess i could go

    how could I do this.

    here is the spec for the led.....
    WHITE 5mm LED’S
    INTENSITY 9000—12000mcd
    FORWARD VOLTAGE 3.0—3.4v
    FORWARD CURRENT 20m/a
    DOMI WAVELENGTH nm
    HOUSING WATER CLEAR
    VIEWING ANGLE 20 degrees

    thank you so much for reading
     
  2. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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  3. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
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    hi there bill.

    thankyou for your quick reply

    i have read the thread that you posted and thought that that might be what i am looking for but i must be honest it don't make much sense to me.

    i can solider and and order any parts that i need but the diagrams kinda baffle me.

    each LED are about an inch away from each other so there will have to be individual wires connecting them. i was thinking maybe we could seperate the light into 3 groups (every 3rd LED in a group) and then just find a way of controlling which 2 groups are on and which 1 are off?? dont know how to do it or if it would work?

    thankyou for you help
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  4. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
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    I could be wrong, but I don't think you can buy this stuff off the shelf. You're going to need to either get a friend who knows electronics, or climb that learning curve.

    But to start off, you need to draw what you're going to do, then figure out how the LEDs will sequence to accomplish the visual effect you're after.

    I'll try to help where I can, but I can't do much from here. Good luck.

    The parts are pretty cheap, and easy to get, for what it's worth.
     
  5. yardleydobon

    Member

    Apr 19, 2009
    19
    0
    I'm guessing you want a chasing effect where the LEDs chase each other in a
    circle. Bill describes that in his post, but from your comments I think you be better
    off using a kit. A quick search for "chasing led kit" found this:
    http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=693

    It's expensive for what it does and the actual component cost, but I believe it would
    be a nice, clean solution for you. More googling on your part might give you a
    cheaper solution that meets your needs.
     
  6. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
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    nope i cant find anything but that chaser kit is for 5 led's but i need to run 48.

    i have worked with components and breadboards before so could knock up a custom circuit.

    that effect it gives out is more of a chase where 1 led would go around.

    i was hoping for more of a wheel turning so on the circle or 48 led every 3rd led would be out and then all the out (off) leds would move up 1 every say... half a second maybe

    thanks
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  7. ElectroKen

    New Member

    Oct 3, 2009
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    Nearly any electronic store on the net (Allelectronics.com to name one) has a "light chaser" kit for about ten dollars. Relpace the LED with a transistor--2n2222, so it can power multiple LEDS. A diagram to show how is usually included. Now you can add as many LEDS as you need. Put number one LED at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions and continue with the other number LEDS.
     
  8. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
    22,182
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    This is basically what you need:

    [​IMG]

    The 12v battery, fuse, and power switch are on the left.

    The 555 timer circuit provides clock pulses to the CD4017/HEF4017/MC14017 5-stage Johnson counter. Only one output of the counter can be high at any given time.

    The Q0 output of the 4017 goes high first, then Q1, then Q2. When Q3 goes high, the counter is re-set, starting from Q0 again.

    The outputs Q0-Q2 from the Johnson counter is connected to the gates of P-channel enhanced power MOSFETs via 1k Ohm resistors. The 1k Ohm resistors limit the current from the 4017's output. The 47k resistors are there to turn off the MOSFET gate in case something is wrong with a Johnson counter output or the 1k resistors.

    P-channel enhanced MOSFETS are OFF when Vgs (the voltage on the gate, reference from the source terminal which is connected to 12v) is near 0v, and fully ON when Vgs is -10 or more. These P-channel MOSFETS are connected to source current to the LED strings.

    Note that Q1 has two parallel strings of LEDs connected to the drain terminal. You can actually connect several more strings in parallel.

    [eta]
    1) When power is first applied, Q1 will be off, Q2 and Q3 will be on.
    2) When the 555 timer pulses, Q1 will turn on, and Q2 will turn off.
    3) On the next 555 pulse, Q2 will turn on and Q3 will turn off.
    4) On the next 555 timer pulse, Q3 is turned on. On the 4017 timer, the Q3 output briefly goes high, which re-sets the 4017 counter, causing the Q0 output to go high. This turns off Q1.
    5) The cycle repeats indefinitely from step 2.

    Many different P-channel power MOSFETs can be substituted for the IRF9Z24's; as long as they have a Vds rating of -25v or higher, and an Id rating of -1A or higher.
    [eta]
    Digikey stocks these IRF9Z14's, which will work fine: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF9Z14PBF-ND
    You could also use these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=NTP2955GOS-ND
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  9. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
    15
    0
    Hi guys thanks again for you replies but this project is getting more and more confusing but i don't like failing so i'm going to stick at it. i have been googling all day and don't seam to be getting much further. thanks ElectroKen & yardleydobon for recommending the kits but looking at it, it don't seam to be what im looking for. the ones i have found say you canot add more leds

    i found something in a local store here but it say's that you cant add more led's to it and i don't think it is compatible with my leds
    here is the link:-

    http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=22559

    to help you guys understand a bit more what i am looking for i have generated some animated gif's and spotted something in the making of them. my first idea is not going to work...

    i was going to splitt the leds into groups of 3 moving through the following 3 step pattern:
    I= on
    0= off
    II0
    0II
    I0I
    but after looking at the gif it some how plays tricks with your mind and changes direction at will lol.

    http://img691.imageshack.us/i/57073229.gif/

    so i have decided that it would work better to group in set of 4. again I still have no idea how to do it. this would run on a 4 step pattern:-
    I= on
    0= off
    II00
    0II0
    00II
    I00I
    this looks so much better

    http://img30.imageshack.us/i/34262658.gif/

    both the wheels have 48 leds on them only have 24 lit at one time the spec for the leds that i have are at the opening post

    i am very surprised that there is not a more simple way. but i'm prepared to do anything as i really want this prop to look the best.

    a big thank you to SgtWookie for supplying that diagram but i only understand things on it like the leds resisters the switch and fuse the rest is just total confusion.
     
  10. BMorse

    Senior Member

    Sep 26, 2009
    2,675
    234
    The kit you mentioned uses a 4015 Shift register to control the LED's, maybe you can just expand that circuit or something similar.... Check ou this site.... has samples on this LED Shifter that you may be able to use in your circuit >>>http://www.doctronics.co.uk/4015.htm#pins

    My .02
     
  11. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
    15
    0
    again none of that makes sence to me pal! i bet i seam like a right bumbat

    it shows 8 leds and i think the other graphs are show 4 on at a time moving across but this is no what i'm looking for. thanks for our help.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  12. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
    22,182
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    I really didn't mean to confuse you - I promise!

    No, that "LED running light" flasher would not work for you.

    The circuit I posted will give you that "movie marquee" moving light effect that you seek, and besides the LEDs themselves, it really doesn't have a lot of components in it.
    The sequence will go:
    o=ON
    - = off
    -oo
    o-o
    oo-
    -oo (ETC)
    It looks more convincing with more "LEDs"
    -oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo
    o-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-o
    oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-

    All of the resistors can be 1/4 Watt carbon film resistors. These are very inexpensive.

    Let me try to explain what the parts are that you are uncertain about.

    V1 is your 12v battery. The positive terminal is shown towards the top.

    C1 and C2 are capacitors. C2 is shown as a polarized capacitor; aluminum electrolytic capacitors are the most common type used for large values of capacitance. "uF" means the specification is given in micro-Farads, or 1/1,000,000 of a Farad. A polarized aluminum electrolytic could also be used for C1. C1 is the timing capacitor for the 555 timer. Polarized capacitors must be installed correctly; if the voltage across the terminals is reversed, the capacitor will be destroyed.
    Here is an example of a 220uF 25v axial-lead aluminum electrolytic that would work for your project:
    http://uk.farnell.com/vishay-bc-components/2222-021-36221/capacitor-220uf-25v/dp/1165468
    Here is another 220uF 25v electrolytic, in a radial-lead package
    http://uk.farnell.com/vishay-bc-components/2222-140-66221/aluminum-electro-capacitor/dp/1702698

    Here is a 10uF 25v electrolytic with radial leads:
    http://uk.farnell.com/rubycon/25ml10m4x5/capacitor-10uf-25v/dp/8126380
    There is a 10uF 50v non-polarized electrolytic with radial leads on this page; you could insert it either way with no problems:
    http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=12777

    U1 is a standard transistorized 8-pin 555 timer. There have been more of these IC's (integrated circuits) made than any other type. The design is nearly 40 years old, but it is still wildly popular.
    Here is a CMOS 555 timer in an 8-pin DIP (Dual Inline Pins) package:
    http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/tlc555ip/timer-555-pdip8/dp/8454434
    DIP packages are easy to use with perfboards/stripboards/pre-drilled PCB's.

    U2 is another integrated circuit; a 4000-series CMOS (Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor) logic chip. These have been around since the 1970's.
    Here is a Motorola/ONSemi version:
    http://uk.farnell.com/on-semiconductor/mc14017bcpg/4000-cmos-4017-dip16-15v/dp/9666621

    Does that help at all?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  13. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
    15
    0
    i help me uderstand your last post very much thsnkyou

    but if you read my last post i have added some animated gifs with two types of designs i thought of and the first one is using groups of 3 leds and i think will be the result using your diagram but unfortunately it is not giving off the right effect. if is not enough of a definite rotation of the when and is keeps swapping direction. well.... my eyes do

    if you take a look at the other link it will show you a different animation which i think will work so much better as it looks like the wheel is moving forward not forgetting that this wheel will be about 3 foot wide
     
  14. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    I'm glad you understand it better. :)

    I have looked at it; and there were a few little mistakes made when you created that animated .GIF; they were just enough to destroy the illusion of continuous rotation. Some of the "LEDs" stay on for several cycles instead of turning off when they should, the frame rate is a bit too slow, and the alignment was off by just a little bit. It was a good effort, but you won't have those kinds of problems when the LEDs are fixed in a circle.

    Yes, I saw that one too. The circuit I posted could be easily added on to for the 4th LED effect; just move the reset connection from the 4017's Q3 to Q4, and repeat the components that connect to Q2's output on Q3.
     
  15. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
    15
    0
    ok thank you one again you have been so much help. i think i have close to enough info to make a start and see if i manage to do this.

    just one ore two question now i think

    how can i regulate to speed so it looks right to how fast the carridge will be moving
    &
    where to i put all the other led's to bring my total to 48. 12 on each Q1 Q2 Q3 & Q4

    also you say
    "he Q0 output of the 4017 goes high first, then Q1, then Q2. When Q3 goes high, the counter is re-set, starting from Q0 again."

    will this be a different effect than the second gif or the same?

    thanks
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  16. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    It might look a little daunting at first - but once you look at it for a while, you'll see that it is really not terribly complicated.

    OK, R8 is shown as a 470k Ohm resistor in the schematic.
    Replace R8 with a 100k Ohm resistor and a 1 MEGOhm (1,000,000 Ohms) pot (potentiometer) in series; the potentiometer wired as a rheostat (just use the center terminal and one end terminal). That should give you a pretty wide range of adjustment.

    Here is a potentiometer that you could use; a panel mount:
    http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mc24n1-b1m-l-42r-ph/potentiometer-1m-lin/dp/4415279


    Yes. You will need four "strings" consisting of 3 diodes and one 150 Ohm resistor per string, per MOSFET.

    As shown, the schematic was drawn to create the effect in the 1st gif animation; groups of 3 LEDs, two ON, one OFF.

    In order to get the effect in the 2nd animated .gif, a few slight changes need to be made:
    1) On U1, disconnect the MR wire on pin 15 from Q3/Pin 7, and connect it to Q4/pin 10.
    2) Look at how Q3 is connected; the same connections need to be made for a new MOSFET, Q4 except the gate of Q4 will connect through a 1k resistor to U2's pin 7/Q3 output.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2009
  17. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
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    0
    ok thankyou i will give it a go but it has changed so much from the original schematic it will be a bit of a challenge. refering to all the changes but hay-ho.

    i'll keep you updated and let you know how im doing!
     
  18. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    OK, I've updated the schematic, with most of the changes.

    I changed R8 from a 470 Ohm resistor to a 1Meg potentiometer.
    There wasn't room to fit in a 100k fixed resistor in series with it without a lot of moving around in the schematic; but you know it needs to go in there - between the wiper arm of the R8 pot (the middle terminal) and the wire that connects pin 2 to pin 6 on U2.

    The schematic didn't originally show the power and ground pins for the 4017.
    Vcc/Vdd/+12v goes on pin 16.
    Ground/Vss/-12v goes on pin 8

    There needs to be a 0.1uF capacitor connected across those two pins. This helps take care of any electrical noise on the circuit wiring; without this capacitor, it may not work properly.

    You could use this capacitor:
    http://uk.farnell.com/epcos/b32560j1104k/capacitor-0-1uf-100v/dp/9752323
    That's the least expensive cap they stock that you can purchase just one of; others have to be purchased in multiples of five or 10, or have to be shipped from the States, which adds £15.95 to the order.
     
  19. j_thain

    Thread Starter New Member

    Nov 9, 2009
    15
    0
    thanks so much for your help but i'm getting more and more confused here.

    i think i might be a little out of my debts.

    the schematic is confusing me and i still dont understand half of the thins on there i can't tell 1 pin from another and the 4017 dont look like what i do on the picture lol


    i cant suss out the Q1 irf19z24g thingies i think they got three pins but i cant match them up the to diagram

    i dont know what a wiper arm of the r8 pot is.

    i am totally lost with everything above the u2 555

    i kinda feel bad pestering. theres asking a question and then there just asking too much.

    thanks for you help tho, very much appreciated
     
  20. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
    22,182
    1,728
    We would all like to be out of our debts! I think you meant to say "depth" though. ;)

    The schematic diagram is (somewhat) organized to help with the understanding of the circuit.

    The actual integrated circuit has pins that are in different locations than what is shown in the schematic. However, the 4017 in the schematic has the numbers of the pins shown.

    OK, the IRF9Z24 MOSFETs have three terminals.
    Have a look at the schematic, at MOSFET Q1.
    Q1's gate (on the left) is connected to the junction of R1 and R4.
    Q1's source (on top) is connected to the +12v supply rail (wire).
    Q1's drain (on bottom) is connected to both R11 and R12.

    A picture is worth a thousand words: here is how a physical part compares to what is in the schematic, and how the symbol is shown in the datasheet:

    [​IMG]


    Fair enough. There are three terminals on a pot. The wiper arm is the terminal in the middle. The two terminals on either side of the middle terminal are the "ends" of the pot.

    OK, don't get flustered. :)

    I rotated the 555 timer symbol to the left 90° on the schematic. It makes it easier to connect up that way.

    The pins are numbered:
    8 7 6 5
    }____]
    1 2 3 4

    That's OK, we all felt lost when we began puttering around with electronics. :) Most of us still are! ;)
     
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