Lightweight air core transformer?

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Robert Clark, Aug 12, 2016.

  1. Robert Clark

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 6, 2016
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    I'm researching the ionocraft, commonly called a "lifter":

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft

    These require tens of thousands of volts. Usually heavy iron cored transformers are used to create the high voltages. But this means the power supply is heavy and the ionocraft can't lift them.
    But how lightweight can an air cored transformer be? Less than 1 gram weight per watt power output would be ideal.

    Bob Clark
     
  2. BobTPH

    Active Member

    Jun 5, 2013
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    The trick to making small transformers is using high frequencies. An air core transformer at 50 or 60 Hz would be much larger than the equivalent iron core.

    Bob
     
  3. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    An old television flyback can easily make HV DC to multi tens of KV levels without a lot of added components.

    Making HV DC with nothing more than air core transformer however is not so easy being some form of end stage AC to DC conversion that can operate at those high voltages and in the multi-tens tens or more megahertz radio frequency range in a small lightweight package is not possible to my knowledge.
     
  4. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
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    100% Agreed:)!
     
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  5. Robert Clark

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 6, 2016
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    Thanks for responding. The lifters can work running on AC. The thrust isn't as great though, so you don't need to convert to DC.
    Air cored transformers are the same as Tesla coils. Many amateurs have built Tesla coils. What are the power to weight ratios achieved with these Tesla coils?
     
  6. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
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    Without wishing to 'split hairs' - I submit that, although the former 'category' subsumes the latter, said relationship is intransitive -- À la 'all ducks are birds yet not all birds are ducks':D

    As something of an inveterate 'coiler' (i.e. Tesla coil designer/enthusiast) myself, I may state - sans fear of contradiction - that said ratio as regards even well designed SSTC arrangements vs. ferrite transformer topologies (e.g. re-purposed LOPTs) significantly favors the latter up to (at least) 200kV...

    As an aside -- should you be contemplating implementation of ion-reaction propelled aircraft please be advised/reassured that such systems are both theoretically and demonstrably feasible:) (even if less than practical at this point in time) -- Ion-propelled spacecraft, on the other hand, are, IMO, a 'blind alley' owing to the age-old 'dearth of reaction mass' impasse...

    Best regards and good luck!
    HP:)
     
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  7. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    I think you need to add a link to an online thesaurus and or dictionary in your signature area so us simple, not so wordy public school educated folk, can have a quick reference point to use in order to understand what you said most of the time. :oops:
     
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  8. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
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    Everyone's a critic;):oops: --- Are you referring to the un-expanded abbreviations (my bad:oops:)?

    LOPT = Line Output Transformer (i.e. A ferrite-core transformer applied to development of accelerating potential in CRT display systems --- AKA "CRT Flyback":cool:...)

    SSTC
    = Solid State Tesla Coil -- (Refers to a Tesla coil system featuring semiconductor 'switching devices')

    Anyway it seems we're at 'cross purposes' -- To wit: I agree with your post (#3):):):)

    Very best regards
    HP:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  9. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    Nope, I got the abbreviations just fine.

    It was, 'subsumes, intransitive, inveterate, and impasse' that are far enough outside of my linguistical knowledge base to not be able to fit their meaning by the way of assumed sentence contexts. :oops:
     
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  10. cmartinez

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 17, 2007
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    Truth being told, my English linguist skills have improved significantly (albeit at a painful cost) since I set myself the goal of understanding every word, sentence and context written by HP :);)
     
  11. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
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    HP I say you're overthinking! To me it looks like OP just wants to use electrostatic repulsion between lifter and gnd instead of creating drive from reaction of ejected ions:confused:?
     
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  12. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
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    Ha ha! I say HP should have said _non-transitive_ cuz _intransitive_ makes ppl think of grammar instead of set theory:)!
    HP I heard a rumor that platypus ducks aren't birds:p!
     
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  13. cmartinez

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 17, 2007
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    Actually... they're all spies and secret agents:

    Perry_the_Platypus.png
     
  14. The Electrician

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 9, 2007
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    The logical defect in Robert Clark's statement is not intransitivity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitivity

    It's the falsity of his implied Logical biconditional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_biconditional

    Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if
     
  15. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
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    But then I was approaching his assertion from a 'set' (well... 'ring') as opposed to 'connective' perspective (and, hence, implication as opposed to consequence, if you will...) -- 'tho I'll grant you, it's a fair cop:oops::D

    Best regards
    HP:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  16. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

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    But then 'the word around' holds that they're not exactly ducks either - Golly, Golly!:confused::D

    Best regards
    HP:)
     
  17. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
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    I'm already carrying 3 dictionaries.:D One in Spanish for Martinez, one in English for HP, and The Urban Dictionary because I'm so old I can't keep up with some of the modern slang.:(

    Signed,
    hashtag one two:D

    Now, what's that book about popular phrases and quotations?
     
  18. Robert Clark

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 6, 2016
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    Well said as a true protege of Hypatia. :)

    But why is the power to weight so poor for Tesla coils, when they don't even need to have a core? Is the power loss rate so high?

    Bob Clark
     
  19. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
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    Sincerely thanks for your input! --Please know that 'readability' is a matter I take quite seriously - especially as we approach completion/'publication' of the EHT PSU tutorial's first installment:cool:

    Very best regards
    HP:)
     
  20. Robert Clark

    Thread Starter Member

    Aug 6, 2016
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    OMG! Two people on this forum with math references in their names! :D

    Bob Clark
     
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