I have a whole theory about why spanking children drives the lesson home. I call it putting an emotional tag on the lesson. Of course, you can't spank a child any more so this theory only applies to things like peeing on an electric fence.
Lightening Bolt Kills 323
- Thread starter DGElder
- Start date
It may be legal in Indiana - today's news shows a woman who beat the tar out of her kid with a coat hanger and then claimed she was allowed to do it based on her religion - the New Indiana Religious Freedom Act pretty much lets anyone claim religious freedom for anything they want to do. I understand why you left.I have a whole theory about why spanking children drives the lesson home. I call it putting an emotional tag on the lesson. Of course, you can't spank a child any more so this theory only applies to things like peeing on an electric fence.
There's a difference between spanking a kid, and beating a kid... spanking is done mainly to impress the child, and should never, ever hurt him physically. On the other hand, anyone that beats their kid deserves to go to jail without passing GO.
I left for several reasons.
1) I decided that if I was going to starve to death, I was going to do it where I'm warm.
2) There was a butt-hurt cop named Perkins that had sworn to get even with me for sticking my tongue out at him when I was 15. (Unfortunately, his 40 year advantage had not made him less childish than a teenager.)
3) I never understood why anybody would choose Indiana except for a well paying job, and I didn't have one.
4) I hate the several months of cold, dirty slush that keeps your feet wet all winter.
5) If you run out of money, you won't freeze to death in Florida.
6) You can survive on fish, oysters, and swamp cabbage if you're really down and out.
7) I came from a family of hillbillys and couldn't stand the ways they displayed their ignorance and poverty.
8) I nearly got arrested for driving past the home of the editor of The Indianapolis Free Press, when I didn't even know that newspaper existed.
9) All in all, it was a fresh start where I could choose friends that were very different from my family.
10) It worked. I spent 41 of the next 46 years working with a network of craftsmen who kept each other employed. (The missing 5 years are when I went to California and attended college between increasingly well paying jobs.)
That's all I can think of right now, probably because I've had 46 years to forget some of the reasons.
Judicious use of physical contact is one of the toughest thing a parent has to do. Some children can be put in "time out" and will spend the next few minutes crying on the stairs until their sentence ends. My older daughter was nearly like that. My younger daughter, however, would scoff at any words and double down on whatever she had done to get in trouble. I started taking away toys. It made her mad, but didn't prevent misbehavior. Soon, she had no more toys.
Nothing short of contact – a spanking – would even get her attention, and frankly even that wasn't all that effective. I remember lying awake at night hating myself for being drawn into physical battles with a 2-year-old, but thankful I had the wits to overcome my anger and frustration and never go too far. I'm not sure I ever changed her mind on anything, by any method.
Over 20 years later, she has a decent job and is the mother of my two grandchildren.
In the end, I think parents have minimal influence over their children. Just do what you can and don't screw them up too badly. Show them they have options and potential. They'll do the rest.
Oh crap, this is the reindeer thread.
You're right, and I'll drop this subject (or maybe start another thread) after this.
Not all children respond in the same way to different forms of discipline. Some of them don't require even the remotest hint of physical punishment. While others will actually get worse because of it. It all comes down to their parent's wisdom when raising them up.
How I wish my kids had been born with a user/developer/maintenance manual included ... we all do what we can with what we're given
I think the punishment needs to match both the crime and the criminal. What tool works best on one kid may not work at all on another. Or what works wonderfully on a kid today may not have worked at all two years ago or three year from now.
My (step) daughter proved herself to be excellent at threat assessment before she was a year old. When her and her mom got back into the country she was just over two years old and she pretty much ran the house for a couple of months until I put my foot down and we had "the night from hell" in which she got two spankings (both of which were two swats and both of which were calibrated by me smacking my forearm to gauge the amount of pain involved). I think she has gotten just a single one-swat spanking in all the years since. I noticed over the next year or so that when she runs up against a boundary she would almost always pushed it again a second time pretty much immediately, apparently just to confirm that the boundary she discovered really was there. But, once confirmed, she has almost always been more than willing and happy to accept and live within her understanding of the boundaries. Now that she's older and we can communicate verbally, she doesn't test new boundaries -- she knows that if I tell her some rule, that there is no value in testing it because she can take it on faith that the boundary is both real and unforgiving. She may give me some verbal grief when I tell her, but that has pretty much just become part of the game. For example, when I told her that it was now her job to put the dogs out in the morning and feed them everyday, she immediately said, "NO!" very firmly. I said, "YEP!" She said, "NO!", I said, "I'm glad that's settled." The next morning (and every morning since for several months now) she puts the dogs out and feeds them. She will, however, push her mom and test those boundaries, but that's because her mom can be a bit squishy on enforcement. Remember what I said about her abilities at threat assessment? Even at two she new exactly how far she could push each adult in her life and she nearly always managed to push just far enough so as to stay on the right side of the fence. It was like watching a maestro at work.
It'll be interesting to see what happens when the teen years are upon her.
My (step) daughter proved herself to be excellent at threat assessment before she was a year old. When her and her mom got back into the country she was just over two years old and she pretty much ran the house for a couple of months until I put my foot down and we had "the night from hell" in which she got two spankings (both of which were two swats and both of which were calibrated by me smacking my forearm to gauge the amount of pain involved). I think she has gotten just a single one-swat spanking in all the years since. I noticed over the next year or so that when she runs up against a boundary she would almost always pushed it again a second time pretty much immediately, apparently just to confirm that the boundary she discovered really was there. But, once confirmed, she has almost always been more than willing and happy to accept and live within her understanding of the boundaries. Now that she's older and we can communicate verbally, she doesn't test new boundaries -- she knows that if I tell her some rule, that there is no value in testing it because she can take it on faith that the boundary is both real and unforgiving. She may give me some verbal grief when I tell her, but that has pretty much just become part of the game. For example, when I told her that it was now her job to put the dogs out in the morning and feed them everyday, she immediately said, "NO!" very firmly. I said, "YEP!" She said, "NO!", I said, "I'm glad that's settled." The next morning (and every morning since for several months now) she puts the dogs out and feeds them. She will, however, push her mom and test those boundaries, but that's because her mom can be a bit squishy on enforcement. Remember what I said about her abilities at threat assessment? Even at two she new exactly how far she could push each adult in her life and she nearly always managed to push just far enough so as to stay on the right side of the fence. It was like watching a maestro at work.
It'll be interesting to see what happens when the teen years are upon her.
Heaven help you !
I'm actually far more concerned how she deals with HIM testing HER boundaries!Or to see how she tests her boundaries with her first boyfriend ... heaven help him
When we were on our honeymoon (she was just one year old at that time) we took a tour of a distillery in Taiwan and my wife told me about a tradition in which a bottle of wine is purchased when a child is born and then given as a wedding gift when the child marries. So we bought a bottle of single-malt whiskey in a nice display box and plan to give it to her at her wedding. But we caveated this with the back-up plan of drinking it ourselves if she turns up pregnant before then.
Well, whatever happens, I sincerely hope you drink that bottle in the happiest possible scenario.I'm actually far more concerned how she deals with HIM testing HER boundaries!
When we were on our honeymoon (she was just one year old at that time) we took a tour of a distillery in Taiwan and my wife told me about a tradition in which a bottle of wine is purchased when a child is born and then given as a wedding gift when the child marries. So we bought a bottle of single-malt whiskey in a nice display box and plan to give it to her at her wedding. But we caveated this with the back-up plan of drinking it ourselves if she turns up pregnant before then.
In my watching, I have come to the conclusion that, "God deals souls from a shuffled deck".
In a litter of 6 kids, no two had the same psychology. In a litter of three, two had the same level of defiance, but one used it to ruin her life and the other used it to control her life into developing a healthy, prosperous adult. (The third one was just stupid. He won a Darwin Award.)
Smart kid.
When my mother told me not to stick my hand in the garbage disposer, I immediately moved my hand toward the opening to see when she would panic and grab my arm. That experiment told me exactly where the danger zone was. It was a TCMtech move. "Cut the crap. We're not going to discuss this. Show me the boundary." I don't know whether she saw that as a stupid move, or defiant, or whatever, but I saw it as, "one experimental result is worth a dozen theories". You should be grateful you have one that is smart enough to do boundary testing.
BR-549 was probably implementing "tackle torture".
I am. She's a GREAT kid in so many ways (at least so far) -- and her and I are becoming tighter and tighter. She started out very much a mama's girl, but over the last couple or three months as I've made a point of interacting with her she has really warmed up to me and we have a great time together, all without encroaching on the parent/child relationship. I'm not her friend, I'm her father. But that doesn't mean that we can't have a very friendly aspect of our relationship as long as the father/daughter aspect is honored and remains paramount. So far that's working out pretty well.
One thing, thus far, that still has me a bit surprised is that she doesn't seem to know how to lie to us, she doesn't seem to be motivated to cover up her mistakes, and she doesn't play her parents off against each other. I always took it for granted that that was just part of being a kid (and she headed down that road at one point, too). But I think that she learned, back when she was three and four, that lying or covering up just never seemed to be as good of an idea as it first appeared and that playing her mom and I against each other was particularly fraught with peril (and, like other boundaries, I can recall her doing that exactly twice). But combined with learning the downsides of all of those, she also learned that owning up to mistakes almost always resulted in immediate forgiveness coupled with a calm discussion of how to do better next time -- and she has almost always seems to make an honest effort to follow that guidance, though not always successfully; but as long as she IS making an honest attempt, then repeats of the same mistakes meet the same forgiving/guiding response. There is almost never any angry shouting in our house. I've never been a shouter and I've gone a bit out of my way to convey that it's when I talk in slow, measured, uninflected tones that she needs to honor the threat. What little shouting there is occurs between her mom and her -- and I've come to the conclusion that much of my perception of how angry it is really has more to do with it being in Chinese, which is a very tonal language and so where we use strong intonation to convey strong emotion, they just need to do it to communicate.
Rule at my house: As long as you're learning from your mistakes, you'll get no grief out of me.
Gosh, it must be great to discuss why a person tried something that didn't work.
My parents weren't that intelligent, but I did learn young that lying doesn't make it go away. They never let go until they had a, "guilty" party. Then it was suddenly over and forgotten. Better that I just fall on my sword than present the logic that led me to try something that failed. It gets the stupid ones to shut up quicker.
Gosh, it must be great to discuss why a person tried something that didn't work.
My parents weren't that intelligent, but I did learn young that lying doesn't make it go away. They never let go until they had a, "guilty" party. Then it was suddenly over and forgotten. Better that I just fall on my sword than present the logic that led me to try something that failed. It gets the stupid ones to shut up quicker.
I think my biggest frustration in being around my daughter is all of the non-stop questions she asks, often essentially repeating the same question or asking 'why' after I've just stated that I didn't know anything about the topic. There have been many times when I've wanted to tell her, "Enough with all the questions, already!" But the thing that I do NOT want to do is to discourage her from being inquisitive and seeking knowledge, however annoying it might get. So I've never done that and I've gone to great pains to try to keep any exasperation or discouragement out of my voice when I tell her, for the fourth or fifth time, that I just don't know. That's also one thing that I think parents are often guilty of -- they think it's some sign of weakness to admit to their child that there are things they don't know. I make it clear to her that I don't know something or that I am just guessing at something. I'll also tell her that we can try to look it up when we get home and then making a point of actually doing it.
Another couple things that I do with her is I tease her and I make up ridiculous explanations for things. By teasing her I've gotten her to not take herself too seriously or to be too sensitive to things that people say to or about her. I sure wish I had had that ability as I was growing up. Just a couple months ago the three of us were playing a game of Sorry and she came in last, so I started singing, "Stacy's a loser" and her mom joined in and almost immediately Stacy was balling and really feeling bad -- it really hurt her feelings. So we stopped, but also explained to her that it was not meant to hurt her feelings and that the best way to react to something like that is to jump on board with something like, "Yeah, but I'm GOOD at it!" Last night I was playing Racko-O (a game she often wins) with her and my stepmom and she came in way last. So out of curiosity I started the "Stacy's a loser" chant and she just giggled and came back with "But papa's gonna lose the next game" using the same chant. She's not wearing her feelings on her shirtsleeves anywhere near as much as she used to, and I think that will be valuable as she interacts with others. At the same time, of course, we have to instill in her the notion that she shouldn't tease others except when it is clear that it is not meant to be mean and the other person is receptive to it being in innocent jest. I don't know how well we are doing in that regard (since we seldom get to see her interact with kids her age given how isolated we are -- but her teacher will likely let us know if it is a problem). As for the ridiculous explanations, the intent of that is to have a bit of fun, but also to get her to not accept everything she is told at face value, even if it's coming from someone she knows she can trust. That's another one of those balancing acts because I still do want her to trust me -- so when I do that I start off with something that's seemingly plausible but make sure that I keep making it progressively absurd until she calls me on it, then we lightly discuss at what point the explanation should have become obviously bogus. She sees it as a game (which it is, when you think about it), so I don't think it is hurting my credibility with her.
Another couple things that I do with her is I tease her and I make up ridiculous explanations for things. By teasing her I've gotten her to not take herself too seriously or to be too sensitive to things that people say to or about her. I sure wish I had had that ability as I was growing up. Just a couple months ago the three of us were playing a game of Sorry and she came in last, so I started singing, "Stacy's a loser" and her mom joined in and almost immediately Stacy was balling and really feeling bad -- it really hurt her feelings. So we stopped, but also explained to her that it was not meant to hurt her feelings and that the best way to react to something like that is to jump on board with something like, "Yeah, but I'm GOOD at it!" Last night I was playing Racko-O (a game she often wins) with her and my stepmom and she came in way last. So out of curiosity I started the "Stacy's a loser" chant and she just giggled and came back with "But papa's gonna lose the next game" using the same chant. She's not wearing her feelings on her shirtsleeves anywhere near as much as she used to, and I think that will be valuable as she interacts with others. At the same time, of course, we have to instill in her the notion that she shouldn't tease others except when it is clear that it is not meant to be mean and the other person is receptive to it being in innocent jest. I don't know how well we are doing in that regard (since we seldom get to see her interact with kids her age given how isolated we are -- but her teacher will likely let us know if it is a problem). As for the ridiculous explanations, the intent of that is to have a bit of fun, but also to get her to not accept everything she is told at face value, even if it's coming from someone she knows she can trust. That's another one of those balancing acts because I still do want her to trust me -- so when I do that I start off with something that's seemingly plausible but make sure that I keep making it progressively absurd until she calls me on it, then we lightly discuss at what point the explanation should have become obviously bogus. She sees it as a game (which it is, when you think about it), so I don't think it is hurting my credibility with her.
The highest compliment I ever received was when a 16 year old person said, "I'll just ask (#12), he never lies."
(Insert real name where I typed, #12.)
A point I'd like to raise: I fail at something nearly every day. If I didn't, it would show I'm not trying new things and I'm not learning today. Nobody can be right all the time. Nobody can be, "best" at everything. Sometimes, you just aren't the best today.
Failing isn't a failure, it's just one of many things that happen every day. You win some, you lose some. Don't mean nuthin' in the long run. Tell her.
You are right. I am totally not qualified to be a politician. I would never sell my soul for a campaign contribution.... and that explains why you're not a politician... that was a compliment, btw
Oh yeah, we make that point to here quite a bit. She's still real resistant to try new things because she's afraid she won't do well (and particularly afraid that others will see her not doing well). So getting her to be willing to just give it a try with the knowledge that she probably WON'T do well at first is pretty high on our list -- and we are making slow progress in that regard. Part of how I'm trying to instill that in here is making sure she sees ME trying new things and, usually, not doing well but showing her that I'm okay with that and still being able to enjoy it anyway. A side benefit of that is that I AM trying things that I almost certainly would not have -- not out of any fear of not doing well or embarrassing myself, but just because I'm not very adventurous by nature -- and enjoying most of them.
