Ideas for "panic" alarm indicators

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
It would be awesome to have a board layout and maybe plan of copper traces to remove, etc. as you did on my previous project !
While I have no problem putting a design together and writing code for free for what at least sounds like a paid job, a stripboard layout is not a small task and I've got several other projects I'm helping with right now, so I must beg off. It would cost a bit more, but you could design your own PCB with ExpressPCB easily and have them build you a few boards. Not as cheap as making a single board from a stripboard, but I don't imagine it will cost too much and it will add a level of professionalism to the end product. I'm happy to check your design if you go this route.

izon said:

Guess I could place the 3 LEDs going to the MP3 player where they are visible as it would be another indicator as to which room is calling for the help.
If it wouldn't be too distracting, how about lighted test buttons? You could have them light up/flash when the appropriate switch is pressed. If you want more of a guarantee the MP3 is receiving a signal, you could either wire them in parallel with the MP3 channels and make sure the uC holds the signal for at least a full second so you "see" the pulse to the MP3 module or wire them to the unused outputs of the ULN2003. Tie the inputs together so when the MP3 channel is activated, the appropriate LED turns on.

izon said:

Is there a need to be concerned if power should go out in the building? They do have a standby generator that is automatically started up in this event but would that in any way
create a false triggering of this alarm system?
Shouldn't be. This is effectively going to be a dumb system. When powered, it will look to see if a button has been pressed. You can test this by plugging and unplugging the power multiple times to verify there are no errors before installation.
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Thanks....I understand regarding the board work. There isn't a lot involved with that input opto isolator wiring so should be fairly easy to make. Then hopefully can link the two boards and bring in the external wiring. Will get back as I get more time but thanks for now.
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
I'm still deciding on some of the parts, hardware needed. Would have liked to use a miniature toggle switch (3)
For the "test" buttons. Ideally, it would would be a NC momentary off type but after much searching, I don't think there is such a toggle. Momentary off (spring return) would assure that it can't get left in the off position after testing .

I can find NC small push button type but it isn't my preferred since this will all be in a plastic project box. If pushing on a test button mounted on face, the box is going to move as you push the button....don't want it to be a two handed process. With a toggle oriented in a manner that would require a push down the box would be less likely to move as much. Any thoughts appreciated.
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
So you'd prefer a N.C. toggle switch with momentary action? Take a look at this search on Digikey. These should all do the trick, you just need to pick out which style you like best. Once you pick one out, post the link to the product (or post the part number) and we'll double check it if you like.
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Have been rethinking some things. After getting my project box, I think I would be better off having a pushbutton test switch on the top of the box for each of the 3 rooms rather than toggles.
I have thought of keeping it less cluttered and save some drilling by going with green illuminated LED pushbutton switches. They would each be in series with the 24vdc
supplying the actual "panic" buttons. These test buttons would have to be "ON" as it's normal position and "Off" momentarily. The hardest part is finding such an illuminated
pushbutton that can also make the built in LED turn on during the test when the internal LED requires 12vdc or some other value not common to the supply we are using.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/26-2060 Here is a switch close to what is needed but has only 3 terminals so requires 12 volts for the LED... another thing is that
the switches would probably be having the LED on when the switch is "ON" rather than the LED to come on when momentarily pressed to the "OFF" position.

I guess I'd have to go with a non-illuminated version and then stick a green LED through the panel next to each switch and somehow have it light when a signal goes
from the driver to the annunciator.

I have some small green LEDs left over from earlier project but would have to look up the specs on them to see if they would be usable.

Another thought is what would be a good spot to place a "Reset / Cancel" pushbutton in the circuitry?

Thanks for the help... waiting for some of my parts orders and need to place one more when some of the above is worked out.
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
The switch you posted a link appears to be a normally off with momentary on, but the description and lack of a datasheet makes that unclear.

In any event, if you want to illuminate an LED when the switch is pressed (and therefore disconnected), the simplest way is to use a switch with both a N.O. and N.C. connection with an LED. I found one such switch on Digikey here. Unfortunately, these are a bit pricey, so you might want to consider a non-illuminated switch like this and adding LED's separately. This is the most error-free I can think of. Another thing you could do is have the PICAXE control the LED's, but this won't tell you if the switches are working if the PICAXE isn't powered or not working for some other reason.

Below is a quick drawing of how to wire it. Someone may have a better way of doing this.

Another thought is what would be a good spot to place a "Reset / Cancel" pushbutton in the circuitry?
Easy enough, we just pick an unused I/O pin on the PICAXE and add a N.O. (or N.C., either would work) with a 10k ohm resistor. Let me know how you want to proceed on the illuminated switch portion and I'll update the schematic accordingly.

Illuminated Switch.png
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Sorry, haven't figured out how to use the "Quote" function so here is a line from your last message:

"Another thing you could do is have the PICAXE control the LED's, but this won't tell you if the switches are working if the PICAXE isn't powered or not working for some other reason".

I guess I don't care if the "test" button checks every possible scenario such as faulty ICs but at least we can demonstrate how it should normally behave if all is well.

Regarding your locating a "test" pushbutton... thanks, that would work well but, as you say, a bit spendy. I came across this one which is much less and feel it would work well.
http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...ITCHES LP0125CCKW015dB&WT.z_header=search_go Let me know what you think.

I'm not sure how you would correctly set things up to illuminate the switch LED. Specs seem to say it needs 2volts min. Could we use the output of the driver at each of the 3 lines to
power the LED? This would show that the "signal" is being sent to the annunciator and thus confirming which "room" is being tested. The light would also come on
when a real alarm is triggered and, again, show which room was initiating it for as long as the signal is set to operate from the programming of the uC.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WP7113GD/754-1263-ND/1747662 Here is a green LED I have on hand that I'd like to connect to the 5vdc line to show that both the
24vdc and 5vdc (which it is derived from) supplies are functioning. What resistor on the LED lead would be needed for this to work correctly?

Regarding the Cancel/Reset button whether NO or NC... could you illustrate how one version would be connected and maybe an insert of how the opposite type would be wired?

Thanks very much for your much appreciated time and help!
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Look at this, this, and possibly a cover. These are a little more expensive than your last switch, but they include an LED rated for 24VDC with no need to add a resistor. They are a little long.

Attached are two schematics. One assumes a simple action where if the test button for a specific location is pressed, the LED lights up. The other adds some intelligence - the PICAXE controls the LED's so if the test or location button is pressed, the PICAXE detects this and turns on or blinks the appropriate LED, whatever you want it to do.

You could go back to using a simple N.C. momentary switch for the test buttons and separate LED's controlled by the PICAXE to keep costs down.

I've also shown how to hook up a N.O. momentary button for use as a reset switch.
 

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Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
I guess I'm kinda stuck with using that pushbutton switch from the previous message.http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...ITCHES LP0125CCKW015dB&WT.z_header=search_go.
I see where you are interrupting the 5vdc from the chip to do the reset... NC. I seem to be missing where you are showing a NO switch to accomplish this.... sorry if I've mistake something.

I see the LED connect pinouts on the driver but what and how are the CTL pinouts used? Also what would be the polarity to connect the LEDs in the sw.
If I would like to use your "intelligence" version of the LED lighting, couldn't I supply the 2 volt LEDs from the 5vdc supply with a resistor in line?
I also like the "intelligence" version since it at least shows the drive chip is likely functioning where the other version would light up the LED even if
the command didn't come through the uC and driver, am I correct on that?

I was hoping I could use one of my left over green 2.2vdc, LEDs, mentioned in previous message, connected via a resistor to the 5vdc line to be constantly
on indicating power is present. Can you show how and what is needed to connect it that way?

Sooo it would not work to connect an LED in the switch to one of the MP3 output lines to indicate which room is calling for help and to show proper
functioning in use of the "test" button?

Hopefully the "intelligence" method does not make the programming a lot more complicated....
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Ooops... that copy & paste for the switch got messed up on the digikey page so please pardon me and look at it on the previous post if you need to check it again.
Sorry...
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
I guess I'm kinda stuck with using that pushbutton switch from the previous message.
Why? Size, cost, etc.? I assume we're talking about using this switch for SW4-6, is this correct? Just want to be sure we're on the same page.

I see where you are interrupting the 5vdc from the chip to do the reset... NC. I seem to be missing where you are showing a NO switch to accomplish this.... sorry if I've mistake something.
Look closely at SW1 then at SW7. SW1 is normally closed and you can see where the button is touching the two contacts. SW7 is normally open - notice that the button is not touching the contacts. It's kind of hard to see if the drawing isn't enlarged. I also once a line is missing between SW7 and the PICAXE pin, I'll correct that on the next version.

I see the LED connect pinouts on the driver but what and how are the CTL pinouts used?
Similar to the LED signals, the CTL signals connect between the PICAXE (U2) and ULN2003 (U3). I just used those instead of adding more lines which would complicate the drawing visually. The PICAXE lines connect to the ULN2003 to control the 24VDC LED's in the 24VDC switch. Sorry, I'm not the best drawer of schematics.

If I would like to use your "intelligence" version of the LED lighting, couldn't I supply the 2 volt LEDs from the 5vdc supply with a resistor in line?
Yes, but I'll need to redraw if you're deciding to use separate switches and LED's. There are lots of possibilities, but I don't have time to draw all of them at once and hope I hit the mark so to speak. Hopefully the last ones helped better visualize some possibilities.

I also like the "intelligence" version since it at least shows the drive chip is likely functioning where the other version would light up the LED even if
the command didn't come through the uC and driver, am I correct on that?
Correct. The 'dumb' version eliminates the PICAXE altogether and relies on a simple mechanical solution. You expressed some concern at the beginning about testing the switches in line with the PICAXE in case of a problem which is why I drew that one. Based on your desire to control the LED's, the 'intelligent' system is the way to go.

I was hoping I could use one of my left over green 2.2vdc, LEDs, mentioned in previous message, connected via a resistor to the 5vdc line to be constantly
on indicating power is present. Can you show how and what is needed to connect it that way?
I'll add that to the next schematic once we determine once and for all which switches you want to use where, namely SW1-SW7. If you can, please provide a link to each switch you plan to use, e.g., SW1-3: link a, SW4-SW6: link b, SW7: link c. If some or all are the same switch, that's fine, I just need to know what you're planning to use at this point.

Sooo it would not work to connect an LED in the switch to one of the MP3 output lines to indicate which room is calling for help and to show proper
functioning in use of the "test" button?
This is a loaded question because there are a lot of possibilities. To keep things simple, allow me to ask some qualifying questions.

We'll use SW1 (switch at location 1) and SW4 (test for location 1) as an example, but this will apply to SW2/5 and SW3/6 as well.
  1. Will the LED for location 1 react the same (blink rate, on time, etc.) regardless of whether SW1 or SW4 is pressed? Or do want the LED to do something different depending on which of these two switches is pressed?
  2. Will the MP3 for location 1 react the same (play time, repeat, etc.) regardless of whether SW1 or SW4 is pressed? Or do want the MP3 file to do something different depending on which of these two switches is pressed?
I don't need to know what the differences are at this moment, I just need to know if they are different for LED and/or the MP3 file.

Hopefully the "intelligence" method does not make the programming a lot more complicated....
It adds to the program, but it won't be difficult, at least for me. :D
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Pardon my ignorance but I've been searching around this forum and website for some basic instructions on preparing and submitting messages. I'm not able to find the proper procedure to select phrases I'd like to "quote" and place them into a new message I'm composing. Anyone pointing this ole dog to a new trick will be appreciated :rolleyes:
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
I haven't figured out how to do a proper quote where the quote automatically includes izon said: this, this, this, but I can tell you how to do basic quoting.

  1. Copy and paste the text you want to quote into the new message.
  2. Highlight the message with your mouse (move cursor to one end, hold down left mouse button, and scroll until all text is highlighted).
  3. In the menu above the new message click on Insert (newspaper-looking icon).
  4. Select Quote from drop down menu.
  5. Done.
Used to be easier with the old site - you'd select Quote first then the cursor would automatically be placed between the quote designators and you'd just paste the text.

I've seen other's do a much better job by including the name of the poster of the quoted text, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that other than manually typing and bolding that portion which seems like a lot of work. Hopefully someone will shed some light on this.
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
I will try to answer as many of your questions as possible so you can set up a "near"? final drawing and related suggestions.

Why? Size, cost, etc.? I assume we're talking about using this switch for SW4-6, is this correct? Just want to be sure we're on the same page.
I sorta stated this poorly when I said I was stuck with this switch. I meant that I'm happy with it, not that I have to use it. I like it's appearance, it's compact size
for limited space I have and I can chose an amber light and the LED ends are brought out to their own terminals if needed. Price is tolerable. So, yes, I will be
using this switch for the 3 "Test" buttons which are SW4,5,6. Link here again for review:
http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...ITCHES LP0125CCKW015dB&WT.z_header=search_go

SW1,2,3 will be this surface mount NO/NC button wired as NC, of course. This site shows it pretty well and
has a data sheet available with a click. Not classy but should do the job.
https://www.jmac.com/Seco_Larm_SS075C_PE_p/SECO-LARM-SS075C-PE.htm?gclid=CLD1-vmcgMUCFQuNaQodjVEA8Q

Look closely at SW1 then at SW7
Yes... I totally understand. I simply did not realize SW7 was a NO type because the contacts still looked as if closed until comparing the two.
Yes, I noticed the missing short line but understood it was meant to be there.

I see what you are saying about the CTL pinouts. I actually missed seeing the second set (on the uC) so didn't understand till now that they
connect between the two ICs and make it cleaner drawing without having to run lines across page ... understand now.

Yes, but I'll need to redraw if you're deciding to use separate switches and LED's. There are lots of possibilities
Again, the switch I've decided to use is the one mentioned at the beginning of this post and has an INTERNAL LED and separate
pinouts. I think I will go with amber for the LED color. Remember it uses 2vdc as does the "power on" LED I want to use.

Regarding SW7, I haven't selected one yet but it will likely be the same size or a bit smaller than the SW4-6 version.... simple push to
reset/cancel. If one version is simpler to employ (NO vs NC) just use whatever is easier for you or show example of either.

This is a loaded question because there are a lot of possibilities. To keep things simple, allow me to ask some qualifying questions.

We'll use SW1 (switch at location 1) and SW4 (test for location 1) as an example, but this will apply to SW2/5 and SW3/6 as well.
  1. Will the LED for location 1 react the same (blink rate, on time, etc.) regardless of whether SW1 or SW4 is pressed? Or do want the LED to do something different depending on which of these two switches is pressed?
  2. Will the MP3 for location 1 react the same (play time, repeat, etc.) regardless of whether SW1 or SW4 is pressed? Or do want the MP3 file to do something different depending on which of these two switches is pressed?
I don't need to know what the differences are at this moment, I just need to know if they are different for LED and/or the MP3 file.
1. I don't see any point in going to any trouble for having a different behavior of the LEDs depending on which switch is pressed.
They may not even look at which LED is on if they have heard the MP3 tell which room is involved and if need be can go over
and see to confirm which LED came on. And as test function it just shows things are functioning as they should. In normal
conditions, the power light on the box will show there is, indeed, electrical power into the unit, and barring any highly unusual
situation, the fact that the indicators (big LED and MP3 unit) are not active, should prove the wiring to all three (SW1-3)
alarm buttons and those switches themselves are OK (since it will be a NC panic button).
2. Here again, I see no need to make any differentiation with the MP3 unit.... the result of pushing the "test" button should be
"what you see (and hear) is what you get" if a real alarm is sounded.

Note: I don't see how you would even accomplish any such changes and it is totally unnecessary. ....how would the system be
able to tell which button is pressed without additional wiring changes or sensors, etc.... no need to answer.. just academic question.


it won't be difficult, at least for me. :D
.... don't worry about thinking you are "bragging", I know you are very capable
and your assistance is invaluable (please don't misunderstand that word, ha LOL).
I've gotten some parts so need to start planning and wiring.
Best regards!
 
Last edited:

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
I sorta stated this poorly when I said I was stuck with this switch. I meant that I'm happy with it, not that I have to use it. I like it's appearance, it's compact size
for limited space I have and I can chose an amber light and the LED ends are brought out to their own terminals if needed. Price is tolerable. So, yes, I will be
using this switch for the 3 "Test" buttons which are SW4,5,6.
Ah, I must have missed the fact these have a built-in LED the first time. Yes, I can see their appeal. Newest schematic shows them below.

SW1,2,3 will be this surface mount NO/NC button wired as NC, of course. This site shows it pretty well and
has a data sheet available with a click. Not classy but should do the job.
https://www.jmac.com/Seco_Larm_SS075C_PE_p/SECO-LARM-SS075C-PE.htm?gclid=CLD1-vmcgMUCFQuNaQodjVEA8Q
Couldn't find a link to the datasheet, but this looks an awful lot like a switch RadioShack used to sell when I worked there. I'd be worried about reliability and possibly vandalism/tampering. These are cheap and I'd worry that they wouldn't make a solid contact opening if someone is in a panic and only pushes on an edge or corner of the switch. You can certainly test this before installation of course, but if it were me, I'd look for something more robust. Do you have three or more wires going to the switch? If yes, you could get a lighted switch and provide 24V for power. Just my two cents.

Regarding SW7, I haven't selected one yet but it will likely be the same size or a bit smaller than the SW4-6 version.... simple push to
reset/cancel. If one version is simpler to employ (NO vs NC) just use whatever is easier for you or show example of either.
Either will work. I show a N.O. switch, bit you can use a N.C. one in its place. I just need to change the code to work with the one you decide to use.

Okay, so operation will be the same regardless if location or test button is pressed. That makes things easy.

Note: I don't see how you would even accomplish any such changes and it is totally unnecessary. ....how would the system be
able to tell which button is pressed without additional wiring changes or sensors, etc.... no need to answer.. just academic question.
We're using a DPDT switch for the test buttons, but we're only using one set of contacts. The other set could go into the PICAXE. When a button press was detected, we'd then look at the second set of contact on the test button to determine if the test or location button was pressed and act accordingly.

Ideas for panic alarm indicators Rev 6.png
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
I see your point on the "alarm" buttons but could not really find any similar surface mount type. I ordered them and I know they seem a bit flimsy so will look for something else.

I received the PICAXE project board kit but have some confusion between their drawing and layout compared to yours. I'm attaching a copy of the paperwork with the item
including the schematic. Hopefully you can spot what really is going on here since it must be a different chip for the driver. Guess I need to know what connections can stay
as your diagram shows and what I may have to change. The PC board shows the same layout as depicted in their schematic. The two ICs are adjacent to each other and output/input lines
of the two ICs are running directly across and to each other.

Sorry for the confusion but maybe it is easier than it looks to me.

Thank you!
 

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Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
IMG_3850.JPG IMG_3851.JPG Don't know if you need this or if any help but here is partially assembled PIC project board so you can see the layout
and connections between the ICs. On that note sheet from last message, they refer to a pull up or pull down resistor on the input side of the uC.
Which option should I wire in the 10k resistor to? Thank you.IMG_3850.JPG IMG_3851.JPG
 

Thread Starter

izon

Joined Mar 17, 2013
217
Don't know if this will be of any use but 2 pics showing partially assembled PIC project board. You can see
the traces and relationship/connection of the two ICs. Which way should I be soldering in the 10K resistor
that can be either pull up or pull down?

IMG_3850.JPG IMG_3851.JPG
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
I've modified the schematic to better work with the board you have.
  1. Remove RA1.
  2. Add a 10k ohm resistor to RPD.
  3. Refer to the schematic below for the rest.
Ideas for panic alarm indicators Rev 7.png
 
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