Hydrogen PWM and EFIE Circuit Help

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by cat3rn, Oct 9, 2008.

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  1. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    I have a schematic for each of the PWM and EFIE. I also have a circuit board with the parts layout.

    What I need is for someone to look them over to see if I got my tracings correct.

    Any help is very much appreciated.

    Bill
     
  2. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    We have serious concerns about adverse effects on any engine when interfering with the ECU. Please see this link - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14794.

    As far as your PWM device goes, it is a waste of time. Please read through this link - http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14695.

    Please feel free to come back and ask questions about the process. We really feel that the "run your car on water" stuff is nonsense, but are attempting to gather what we feel are factual reports on the addition of H2O2 gas to automobile engines.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2008
  3. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    All I asked was for someone to look it over and see if the tracings are correct.

    If I want to blow up my car that is my problem. lol

    Can someone just tell me if the tracings are correct.

    A simple Yes or No. If No then could you please tell me what is incorrect.

    If I hook it up and use the PWM and the EIFE and it doesn't work, no big deal. I have several ECUs laying around for my vehicle as I have the programming unit for them to tune them.

    If it does work then I will have a water burning car. lol
     
  4. Audioguru

    New Member

    Dec 20, 2007
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    The circuits do not use the recommended capacitor values for the voltage regulators.

    The lousy old LM324 opamp has trouble at frequencies above 2kHz.

    It is not a good idea to burn pistons and valves when the ECU makes the mixture too lean instead of burning a little more gasoline. The tiny amount of hydrogen takes a lot of power to produce and it won't make any difference. NOBODY has proved that HHO works in a car's engine.
     
  5. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    You might think of our opinions as informed opinions. We collectively know quite a bit about the field of electronics (including contributing members as well as moderators).

    We are just as interested is saving money on gas as you are. We just don't wish to sacrifice an engine to something not well understood.

    Going ahead without regard for the drawbacks of the circuits or taking the trouble to read that there are much better ways to make a more effective circuit is, ultimately, ignoring offers of help. One of our more respected members made up a circuit that will work much better than the PWM circuit you got online.
     
  6. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    Ok thanks. If replying with information please let me know if you are talking about the PWM or the EFIE

    About the LM324N what would be better to use?

    What cap values would be good for the voltage regulator or should I change the voltage regulator?

    Are the tracings correct though? Do the layouts match the schematics on each?

    I keep burning out R14. only lost 2 of them before I changed a circuit I missed.

    Just an FYI this is a Current Sensing PWM. So the values might be just the right ones for the regulator. I do know of someone that has a working one of these but it is very difficult to get a hold of him to ask him these questions and get a reply in less than 2 months.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2008
  7. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    Which member is that and can you add a link to the info?

    I am open to suggestions. I am not at all closed minded. I just thought that the first reply in a help thread would have been a little more positive.
     
  8. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    This may be of some use: http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm

    The link was provided in the second post of this thread - the post you claimed "could have been more positive." Since you are open-minded, perhaps you will view said post in a new and more positive light.
     
  9. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    For the PWM, you'd be a lot better off using something like an LM8272. It's a dual opamp that has far greater bandwidth, is rail-to-rail, and has a somewhat more appropriate temp range, although still not good for under the hood (high end is 85°C). You really need an opamp that'll go the full automotive temp range (-40°C to 125C°).

    It's getting tough to find automotive-range opamps with good bandwidth in DIP packages. If you're making your own boards, it's not so much of an issue - but mixing through-hole and surface mount packages on the same board can be a pain in the neck (lower, too).

    The LM324N isn't suitable for something like this not only because it's very slow, it's also a "commercial" temp range opamp (0°C-70°C). It wouldn't last long at all under the hood.

    I haven't checked your boards vs schematics out thoroughly, but your pads and holes look to be quite undersized. This will be a problem when you try to drill the holes and solder. It's not like you're that tight for space.
     
  10. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    I use a program called PCB123 http://www.pcb123.com/

    I tried the eagle software and found this one is much easier to use.

    I looked at both links before replying, that was not the issue, it was stating the feelings that made me feel like I was not going to get any help knowing that the "stuff is nonsense". But I am getting off track here so lets just suffice to say it was a misinterpretation.
     
  11. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    I won't have a probelm with temps because the project box is going to be mounted inside the car near the center console. Now I just need to find a LM8272.

    Not a problem as I am making my own PCB's and acid washing them.

    Not mounted in the engine compartment. But being slow means I am going to use a faster one. Thanks.

    See picture of my first PCB below. I have room to make it larger if you think that it won't stand up to the current or heat.
     
  12. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    In one of the other threads you mentioned replacing the 7810 with the 555 Timer.

    How would I wire in the 555 Timer instead of the 7810?

    You also mentioned ----------

    I like this idea. Do they have a parts list or I could just look over the schematic and figure it out. Would it work better than if I changed out the LM324N for the LM8272 and the 7810 with the 555 Timer?
     
  13. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    I am not very good with making electrical circuits but I can do the mechanics and the layout, soldering etc. However, I need help with the circuitry in order to do that. Can someone help out with the circuitry of at least the EFIE?
     
  14. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    The "EFIE" portion is absurd. If you attempt to use that circuit, you will likely wind up killing your O2 sensors, your ECU, burning up your engine, or various combinations of the above.

    Narrowband lambda sensors are very non-linear outside of a very narrow range (stochiometric). Attempting to use them outside of their normal operating range will result in dismal failure.

    You need wideband O2 sensors, and a method to replicate the 0.1v-0.9v signal transitions the original narrowband sensor provides. You also need a "fallback" mode for running on just gasoline. The signal replication could be provided by a simple comparator circuit in conjunction broadband O2 sensors.
     
  15. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    Is there a circuit you would recommend for doing this? Since I cannot afford the controller yet?

    I am going to get a WB O2 Sensor soon and hook it up using an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband Controller.

    I can hopefully just use a switch to turn off the EFIE as my fallback mode. Is that OK? Or do I need to do something else. I'm all ears here.
    Can you direct me to a simple comparator circuit?

    Seriously I do appreciate all of the help as I am new to this electronics stuff.

    THANKS A BUNCH FOR ALL THE HELP!!!!
     
  16. electricme

    New Member

    Oct 15, 2008
    3
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    Hello cat3rn,

    20 odd years ago, a chappie once said to me, it cannot be done.
    I am referring to building a telescope out of junk, everything had to be 2nd hand. Today the telescope exists, it weighs 2 tons, it works.:D

    There is a fellow who is the editor of a electronics magazine in australia who also has the problem about HHO production, "it cannot be done"

    So dont give up, it can be done.;)
    Theres going to be a lot of people who will want to hide under the carpets when they realise they have been wrong.

    Hope this cheered you up.
     
  17. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    Dude you ROCK thanks for the encouragement It really lifted my spirits.
     
  18. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    There isn't a way that I know of to make narrowband lambda sensors give reliable and accurate sensing of O2 levels outside of their stochimetric range. Once outside of stochiometric, they are very non-linear; staying near 0.9v at one extreme, and 0.1v at the other. However, as exhaust gas temperature varies, so do these limits. With a high EGT, the upper limit may come down from 0.9v to 0.75v, and the lower limit may increase from 0.1v to 0.25v.

    Your ECU is simply looking for the lambda signal to transition across the 450mV (0.45V) level; or midway. It does not measure the absolute voltage of the lambda sensor, only monitors the transitions from "no oxygen present" to "oxygen present", or from "too rich" to "too lean". The computer senses these transitions, and adjusts the duration of the fuel injector's pulse in an attempt to make the lambda sensor toggle to it's other state. The transition may occur several times per second.

    While somewhat crude by today's standards, it is a viable system. Vehicle manufacturers were mandated to provide high-mileage warranties for emissions systems controls, along with strict emissions limits. Engineers were forced to select air/fuel ratios to maximize those emissions systems controls and their life. Catalytic converters will last the longest when the engine is operating with a stochiometric fuel/air mix; if it's more rich, carbon buildup occurs, if it's more lean, heat increases.

    I have no experience with or knowledge of those controllers.

    Rapid-fire question time, eh? ;)
    I don't have the installation instructions for that EFIE, so I have no way of knowing what you're getting into. If you want a true fallback mode, you will need a way to switch back and fourth from your old narrowband lambda sensor input to the new EFIE, but without having a look at the instructions and schematic, I can't give you any more suggestions.

    Your ECU was designed to operate with a signal transitioning from 0.1v to 0.9v on the O2/lambda sensor input, which is what narrowband lambda sensors provide. Wideband lambda sensors provide a linear voltage, somewhere between 0.3v and around 4v, depending upon the fuel/air ratio. There are 4-wire and 5-wire wideband lambda sensors; they require different connections. There are no standardized color schemes used in wiring between manufacturers; the documentation must be consulted.

    Connecting them up incorrectly will result in a destroyed lamda sensor. Even using an ohmmeter on them (either narrowband or wideband) will destroy them.
     
  19. cat3rn

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Jun 3, 2008
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    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

    I will be using the wideband sensor. So we (frog in pocket) need to come up with an EFIE that will work with it.

    or maybe I can just control it with the above device.
     
  20. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    A quick glance at the installation manual showed that it can be programmed in lambda mode to emulate narrowband lambda sensors. You should not need to build any hardware right away. Channel 1 is programmed for lambda by default, channel 2 for AFR. You'll have to reprogram Channel 2 for lambda - that is, if your ECU requires two lambda inputs.

    If your ECU only requires a single lambda input, you'll have a good bit of flexibility with just one kit :) You could leave channel 1 in lambda mode for starting/running on gasoline, and use channel 2 in wideband mode for running with your cell generating gas. You will then need a comparator circuit to provide an adjustable lambda signal to your ECU.
    Use a SPDT relay to switch the lambda input to your ECU from channel 1 to the comparator-modified output of channel 2.

    It's a bit premature to whip up a circuit diagram, because I don't know if your vehicle currently has single or dual lambda sensors.
     
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