Hydrogen Fuel Cell

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Pulsing DC appears to be a possible route to increased electrolytic efficiency. If the OP wants to experiment in that murky area, let's help as we can.
Are you serious about this? So, since the OP did not answer a single one of my questions, I'll ask you.

Where do you see compelling evidence of this? The only solidly written paper out of the 4 you linked to drew the opposite conclusion.

How do we help him? Can you even push 250W into water using 12VDC pulses @ 50mHz? What would you need to do that? Pure water? use of a catalyst? Use of an electrolyte? Is the geometry, design or material of the electrodes significant? Is the pulse width/shape significant?

Even if we were all as convinced as you seem to be yourself, and wanted to help with this, how can we begin if we do not know even the tiniest bit of information about how to design this thing or what the working theory tells us about how it needs to operate?

This request is fundamentally different than the other requests we get on this board. We get... 1) questions from people about how to do things based on solid and well understood principles and we apply our knowledge of those principles to help ...and 2) questions regarding things we may not familiar with, but the poster has enough knowledge of the theory behind what they are doing to know where they need help and can give us a fairly precise idea of what they need, so that we can use our knowledge of scientific or technological practices to help them take the next step.

In this case, however, the poster has no working theory. They have asked us the help them design an illegal instrument and is either unwilling to explain why, or has absolutely no idea why this instrument needs these specifications.

The radio emissions for this thing, if it uses square waves, will be all the way from the fundamental (42mHz) all they way up to god knows what. If we wants true rectangular pulses, the harmonics will extend into the gHz. The fundamental is squarely in a range that is held by private and amateur mobile radio. The harmonics effect TV, FM, VHF, UHF.... Is he going to properly shield this thing? How? Or is he planning to get FCC permission to run it?

I could help with this. It actually covers a lot of ground I have considerable experience with, but unless my basic questions get answered, I couldn't, even if I wanted to. Instead I'm accused of 'jumping his ****' for asking them. What does that tell you?

BTW, I am closer to 60 than 50, so not entirely pink.
 

simeonz

Joined Jan 26, 2013
32
Me

After I finish my machinist course, the way I would go about it, if I were to ever again mess with this, would be to take the injector idea, and just mess around, as If I were the first person ever to try. I would not let myself be boxed in, I would abort if there were no results.

That was a good idea, even tho there was no evidence it ever worked. The concept was good.

I would never consider this as more than a hobby, even experts in some fields have ended up not finding results.

If you are not an expert already in the field of microwaves, you dont have what it take, you will just get hurt.
 
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wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Where do you see compelling evidence of this?
I don't. But I also don't see a reason to a priori refuse to offer advice on the circuitry he would need to do experiments, based on an opinion that it might be (or IS) junk science, or a dead-end idea. As long as the work is not an outright attempt to violate the laws of physics, why not? Personally, I wouldn't even mind helping someone on a perpetual motion machine, as long as it's for fun and they understand it can never actually achieve unity.

Your points about the equipment being unsafe and illegal are far more relevant - to me - than the validity of the "science" he might want to do. Work in this area with those power levels might be sufficiently dangerous or illegal to warrant closing this thread. I don't have the expertise to judge.

Advice on how difficult this work will be is also relevant and useful to the OP. Like many that come here, I'm not sure he grasps how hard and expensive this will be.
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
I'm not sure he grasps ...
And this is the crux of it. He dismisses my questions as negative comments, because he does not understand their relevance to what it is he wants to do.

Example, he indicates he wants help from us in building a device that will pump 250W of 12VDC pulses @ 50mHz in, well were are not entirely sure.

So, let's look at that.

First, at the operating frequency asked for, the impedance of the load is critical! If the output stage of the drive circuit does not match the load and the transmission lines, he's dead in the water to start with. Efficiency will be horrible.

In order to determine the impedance we will need to know (at least) the following:
1) What the liquid will be like .. pure water, pure water with an electrolyte, which electrolyte, what will the concentration of the electrolyte be...?
2) What will the configuration and material of the electrodes .. their size, number, placement, structure, will he be using a catalytic material like platinum, iridium or palladium .. ?
3) The pulse width and duty cycle

Then this is where the 'science' comes in, because we'll need to know what the working theory tells us about how each of these parameters affects the impedance of the system. How does the system respond to each of these factors and how they can be tuned to reach the ideal impedance.

That is all a vacuum right now and leads us nowhere except that we will have no possible way to determine if we are even remotely approaching the desired results.

So, why don't we look at it from a different direction to see if any useful light is shed. The OP he needs 250W of 12VDC pulses. Well, he has not even let us know what the pulse width needs to be. Well we could take a shot in the dark and say 5ns. What would that imply? 5ns pulses at 50mHz is a 25% duty cycle. 250W average with 25% duty cycle at 12VDC implies an impedance of around 140 mOhms. Again, without the science to give us some direction do we know if that is correct?

So, what happens if we go ahead and design for him a drive that will deliver 250W of 12VDC 25% duty cycle pulses at 50mHz into 140 mOhm and the experimental set-up he builds and an actual impedance under these conditions of 12 Ohms, what does this do to his efficiency?

Again we are no where. And that is just looking at a small number of the factors around one single specification, the impedance.

The 'science' matters, and we'd need to understand it to even begin to help.

But here is where it just seems bogus to me. All this might do is provide a means by where there can be some resonance set up in the bonds between the water and the hydrogen. Forget for a moment that the frequency (42mHz) is sheer fiction, but just look at what this implies. It implies we can shake the hydrogen so hard that it will beak it's bond with the oxygen. At least do a back of the envelope calculation to see how ridiculous that is. Using the mass of the hydrogen atom, and the bonding force between it and the oxygen, what momentum would you need to impart on the hydrogen atom so that it would overcome that force and break free, along with it's electron? :confused: And this is just kinetic energy. This is what we normally refer to as the 'heat'. In bulk, that is the temperature. What temperature do you need water at before dissociation occurs? 30,000K? 100,000K?

250W into a cup of water will heat it up, but I can do that with my 1.8KW microwave oven. I just tried putting 1ml of water in my microwave and was unable to tear it apart. And microwave ovens actually do work at a frequency that is significant to the water molecule.

Electrolysis of water just does not work that way. I would suggest to the OP to:

1) Actually study the theory and mechanisms of how electrolysis does work, with all the variations that can be implemented.
2) Formalize his theory in a rigorous manner (do the math!!!)
3) See if there is any synergy between the two, as in - can 2) make 1) work better.
4) Formalize some predictions on how the theory will work.
5) Use that understanding to properly design an experiment to test the predictions against actual results. That way he'll know what he needs to build, then he can come back and ask us for something we can actually help him with.

I might be all ****** up, but that's how I've done science in the past.
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Interesting research claims 45-50% efficiency for a new electrolysis method.

http://www.inl.gov/featurestories/2004-12-08.shtml
And not a pulse in sight, huh? Well, if we designed a 250KW pulse generator, perhaps we could get the temperature up to 830C. Well, then there is the pressure, containment and cooling problems. Then again why not just do what they did ... “We’ve shown that hydrogen can be produced at temperatures and pressures suitable for a Generation IV reactor”.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
I might be all ****** up, but that's how I've done science in the past.
That's fine Bill, but I don't spend time here to ensure that people are doing good science. I worked in corporate R&D with brilliant people and couldn't even get THEM to always do good work. I don't expect to find great science in an internet forum, even this one. I humbly suggest that you'll be less stressed if you reduce your expectations.

It's about accepting the things you cannot change and I accept that we'll never prevent folks from performing crazy and even stupid experiments. It infuriates me how much over-unity discussion you can find on the internet in this day and age, but I've learned to look the other way for the sake of my own sanity. I'm glad this forum is a haven from that madness.

So far the OP has as asked for a circuit to drive 250W into an undefined load at 12V and ~50MHz. Other than the necessity to pin down what the electrical properties of that load are, or at least identify the unknowns, I don't really care beyond idle curiosity what he's doing as long as it's not suicidal. Just my 2¢
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
I guess your right, as long as he does not kill himself, why worry.

Me stressed though? Nah. An old retired codger like me? A tad irked maybe. He asks for something but can't give us the least bit of information for us to help him. His neighbors might be a little stressed once he cranks this thing up though.

Anyway, I've really given up this time. I for one can't help him without the information I requested, so....
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Well, I was thinking that everything has been specified. I mean, 250 watts at 12V and 50MHz leaves no degrees of freedom. (There is still ambiguity about the wave shape and duty cycle.) If the supply is capable of delivering that signal, the load itself is the only thing left that can be changed to achieve that much current. Bigger electrodes, more electrolyte, and so on. None of that affects the power supply "specification".


Glad to hear that you enjoy the only benefit of our advancing ages; wisdom. ;)
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Sigh!

Wisdom is a as wisdom does I guess. Age definitely has some benefits but on further cognition, I think if I could be 18 and know what I know now,I could rule the world!!!!!!:D:D:D

Yup.
 
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